Peter McGraw welcomes back previous guest Monique (Murad) Da Cunha and long-time listener Theresa Williamson, both proud solos living in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. They discuss Monique and Theresa’s unique experience of single living in Brazil, exploring cultural perspectives, personal journeys, and the vibrant solo lifestyle in Rio, one of the world’s most dynamic cities.
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Listen to Episode #225 here
Single In Rio De Janeiro, Brazil
Welcome back. As you likely know by now, I have moved away from a weekly schedule to give myself a break and focus on other endeavors mostly personal. However, because the Aging Retiring and Dying Single series is occurring on the first Thursday of the month, there will be the occasional back-to-back episode still. For example, there will be an episode next week where I’ll be hosting a conversation about end-of-life issues as a single. In this episode, I welcome back a previous guest Monique Murad, and a long-time listener Theresa Williamson. Both were proud solos who were living in Rio De Janeiro Brazil. We’re here to talk about living single in Brazil. Welcome back, Monique.
Thanks, Peter. It’s good to be here.
Welcome, Theresa.
Thank you so much, Peter. It’s an honor. Very exciting.
Monique has been a previous guest. We did the Truth or Truth and then we did a building community episode. Theresa, you have listened to every episode is that true or close?
I religiously listened to them for two and a half years maybe, and then I went back and listened to a few before that. I think so.
I am always impressed that people have that commitment. Thank you for that. You two met by way of the show. How is that?
We did indeed.
I love you two speaking in unison.
You introduced me to almost myself, my reflection, but Theresa reached out to me through your show. You sent me a message because she sent you a message through the platform and then we finally got together here in Rio. We’re like a 20-minute Uber ride from each other and it was a match made in heaven. I am so grateful now to have her as part of my community here in Rio.
I heard her on the show and then I heard she was here. I was like, “I got to reach out.”
Monique lives in Copacabana. Theresa, you live in Saint Teresa.
Yeah. Santa Teresa
In full disclosure, I have recently visited Rio and had lunch with both of you. Monique was an incredible host telling me what I should be doing, where I should be going, and how I should behave.
It’s my life goal to make sure everyone falls in love with Rio the way I am.
Coming Back To Rio
I caught some pretty serious feelings while I was there. Perhaps there’ll be a group SOLO trip coming at some point. Theresa and I have talked about this. This is an interesting episode because we’re going to get to know the two of you especially Theresa while talking about Brazil, and in general, talking about Rio specifically, and how you two have come to find yourself there, why it’s a wonderful place to go solo and maybe not so wonderful, perhaps in some ways. We’ll see. You’re both Brazilian women raised in the United States, two different generations who chose to return to Brazil specifically to Rio as young adults. Is that fair to say?
I was 25. How old were you Monique?
Twenty-six.
You two are living parallel lives.
We’re the same.
What is the community to know about that in particular about yourselves? Why this choice?
I was trying to think how to talk about this without going into my entire life story. I moved to the US when I was six and we would come back on vacation at least every other year. There was a lot of bullying going on where I was growing up. I suffered quite a bit of bullying constantly. When we came back to Brazil, I didn’t experience that. I experienced a sense of warmth and belonging. At a pretty young age, maybe 10 or 11 on one of these trips, I realized I wanted to go back.
Nothing related to being solo. Just being a kid who felt a sense of belonging and connection with the city where my family had lived when I was young. When I was older in college, I was an activist and I was involved in a lot of different social and environmental movements. I was trying to figure out where I could have the most impact. I realized I needed to be somewhere where I could hit the ground running. I wanted to devote my life to somewhere where I could make an impact. Of all the places I had been at that point in my life, Rio and Brazil in general, is where I felt I could do that.
I should mention that my mom was Brazilian. My father is English. They were intellectual immigrants to the US. They both went to grad school and met there. When we were little, my brothers and I moved around so that we could figure out where we would end up. That’s why I lived in Rio as a small child, but then their work took them back to DC where I spent my elementary, middle, and high school years.
Are you still an activist?
I am still an activist. Very much so. That is a cord of my purpose and identity.
How so?
As young as I can remember in sixth grade, the bus driver of the school bus was torturing the little kids. I put together a petition and I got all the kids to sign it and I took it to the principal. He was pulling on the kids’ ears and telling them awful stuff. That was my first lesson as an activist because the principal kept saying come back next week and we’ll talk about this.
In the meantime, I boycotted the school bus for my own safety too because the bus driver knew at this point. I went all the way through the end of my sixth-grade year without a response and then graduated. My first lesson as an activist is you have to be willing to stick it through. There is no end date. You have to be willing to start things that you’re going to see through.
That’s amazing.
I am not surprised at all. I love that you probably took a lesson as a sixth grader to what you do today.
I do. It all adds up. Someone else would have given up. That’s why I say I think it was very core to my identity. This is why I exist.
You have a lifelong focus on fighting injustice.
Exactly, and for environmental causes as well. I run a non-profit that I started when I was 25 when I first moved back to Brazil, and we support Favela Community organizers.
For people who don’t know that term, what does that mean?
Favelas are Brazil’s word for what we would call informal settlements. Those are spontaneous human settlements where people build their own housing. In the US, they’ll use terms like squatters, shanties, or slums. They do start out that way, but when they’ve been around for generations, they consolidate and then we do them a huge disservice to seeing them as temporary and precarious. We need to invest in them and fully integrate them into our communities, countries, and so on.
I’ll say this as someone who is visiting. This is integrated into the community. I stayed in Copacabana, which has a beautiful beach, views of the mountains, and views of the city, but then right from the window of my hotel, I could see one there. This is right up the side of a mountain. It’s enormous. Thousands and thousands of people live there. My guess is it may have been there for decades.
Yeah. Generations at this point. We have 1,000 favelas in Rio. They range in size from tens of people to 200,000 people, and about 1.5 million people live in them. Most people who live in favelas are living in communities that are over 50 years old.
Monique, you have a similar story, which is you were also drawn to come back to Rio. Why so?
It feels a little bit like I’m going to repeat that story but I swear it’s my own. I was born and raised in Los Angeles, but both my parents are from Rio. They met in the US but they both immigrated. The first time I came to Rio I was one and a half. I come every other year since birth, so it was important for my mom to create that connection.
We didn’t have any blood-related family in the US, all chosen family. I remember growing up and sobbing every time I had to leave Rio. I love my family but there was a sense of belonging and a sense that this is where I fit. I go to the US and I don’t fit. I had this sense ever since I was young. It was probably at a similar age, maybe like 10 or 11. I thought I wanted to live here, but my whole life, people dissuaded me.
I think I had a different experience. My mom was very open and supportive but there’s this immigrant child pressure of why are you going to go back to what your parents and so many people left? I felt that guilt and that pressure. A lot of people support me saying, “Do university in the US. Take advantage of what you have there. Get a job.”
I even tried to get married. I tried to stay with a very American man. It didn’t work. A few years ago, I had enough. I want to be here. I’m done making a pro-con list and listening to what people have to say similar to Theresa’s story, I have worked in social impact. I have had that side of me ever since I was young. My master’s degree in International Affairs focused on Economics. I didn’t want to work from essentially the Global North anymore.
I wanted to be somewhere where I could have an impact. More than that, I wanted to be in Brazil. I kept chasing after opportunities to work with Brazil internationally and I said, “Why? Let me go to Brazil and do the work on the ground.” Today, that’s what I do. I work in this social impact space on the ground here in Brazil. I am so happy. Almost every day I wake up and I am so in love with where I live and so grateful that I made the choice.
Welcome To Brazil
That’s wonderful. I have to observe how wonderful it is that the two of you met. I could see it when I was there in person and you have these parallel wives in a sense with Theresa having a bit of a head start. You two could have been coexisting in this big city without ever knowing each other. One of the powerful elements of the SOLO project is that it can bring together like-minded people whether they’d be close in proximity or on the other side of the world. Most of my audience have never been to Brazil. They’ve never been to Rio. They’ve heard things. How would you describe Brazil generally and Rio specifically to someone who has a hazy understanding of this magical place?
Brazil is the largest country in Latin America, Portuguese speaking. How to summarize Brazil? These are my words. It’s a country that’s more African than I think the other origins. It’s a country with obviously Portuguese influence, the indigenous influence, but because of the intensity and duration of slavery in Brazil, we have a majority black population, and this is the underbelly.
We as a country don’t recognize and value this. I’m giving you the dark side. I’ll let Monique bring the great side, which is probably the other side of the same elements, but we have structural inequality that’s incredibly severe. It’s very hard for people to understand the depth of it. It takes a long time to contemplate, live, experience, and analyze it. Even after Brazilians often don’t have the opportunity to do this.
It’s a place with a lot of work that needs to be done to allow it to reach its full potential, but with an incredible vibrancy that comes from the same traditions that I mentioned and resilience, which is an overused word now. This intense resiliency that exists in the population as a whole has led to a lot of cultural vibrancy. It’s a country that preserves its culture better than many. You experience it when you come.
I agree with everything about the foundation of Brazil, but I’ll bring what it is to experience Brazil maybe today by coming to visit. Brazil is so huge that you start from the Amazon all the way to the South. You have so many different cultures within one country. We can speak about Rio specifically, but I spent a lot of time this year traveling throughout some of Brazil. I went up to the Northeast which is an incredible state, very different culturally.
I spent time up in the Amazon. Also very different culturally with a heavier indigenous influence, really beautiful. You have so much within one country. It’s so incredibly diverse both in landscape and in people. I agree with that is a shared that it’s rich in culture and pride in being a Brazilian. The US is so beautiful being a melting pot.
When you’re in Brazil, you feel this linkage. Everywhere that you are, there is this sense of belonging to be Brazilian and what it means to be Brazilian. Even as a child of an immigrant growing up in LA, all of my Brazilian aunts were from all parts of Brazil. The aunts being chosen family, immigrants also that came to the US. There was this sense of belonging and this understanding of one another with their culture.
Can I interrupt you because I know you’re going to gush about Rio? I want to reiterate this based on my limited experience there. It’s a very warm country temperature-wise, but it’s a warm country culturally. It’s some of the most friendly, warm, and happy-esque people that I’ve encountered.
I’ve been very fortunate to travel the world, and that stands out even among South Americans who tend to be warm in general. I think the Brazilians are top of the list in that way. It is shockingly diverse with regard to culture, but then all so landscape. You have the rainforest, you have beautiful beaches, and you have mountains. I don’t think you have desert. I could be wrong about that.
Do you have desert too? You have desert too. It’s a little bit of something for everyone in this great country. It also has Sao Paulo, which is very New York-like, and then it has Rio which is LA-like. Rio has mountains, beaches, and a city. You can almost touch all of them at the same time, which is delightful there. You both were drawn to Rio. Why Rio?
In my case, I had family here. This is the city where I had spent the most time growing up when we visited. My grandmother and my aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. were here. It was a city that was familiar to me and that I loved. I first came for those reasons but also because it is a city where I felt like I could hit the ground running doing some of the work I wanted to do. There was a lot of need.
There’s a deep history here that I alluded to in my last comments that requires a lot of people to work to improve things. Those were the reasons I came back to Rio. Why did I stay in Rio? I love this city. We talked about nature, the culture, and the mountains. They say it’s the largest urban forest in the world but there are so many different ways to measure that. We have two very large national parks in the middle of the city.
They are hard to access. They’re not these walkable accessible places. You have to drive up to get into them, but there are all the beachfront neighborhoods. It’s a peninsula, so you have water on three sides. If you look at a water map of Rio the river, it’s a city that was originally full of rivers too. It’s pure nature and the value here does come from nature and the culture. There’s very little that comes from people in my profession or from the urban planners of Rio. Let’s put it that way.
Very active city.
I would say that.
It’s very outdoorsy. It’s a good city to be outside.
I would say that’s one of the things that pulls me, and this is maybe getting a little bit ahead of why it’s so great to be solo, especially as a solo, you’re an adult. It’s so active and so open as an adult to new activities. There’s so much happening. The weather supports that. It’s lovely all year round. It’s winter right now and I do open water swimming in the ocean. I also climb. I live in a city where in the morning before work, I can go out and climb up a mountain like an outside climb, finish, jump in the ocean, come back home, take a shower, and work before 10:00 AM.
It’s lovely. At the end of the day, I can end with a Samba. I’m walking around my small part of the neighborhood. Even though I’m in a big city, I feel like I cannot leave my door without running into somebody I know. Depending on where you live, essentially there are smaller communities everywhere in Rio. You’re in this big city, but you cannot be anonymous. You feel like you’re living in a small town. Those are some of the reasons why and a little bit about Rio.
That’s great. Monique said something to me that I liked. She said, “If you get up early and go to the beach, you’ll see the two sides of Rio intersecting. You’ll see the people coming out to run, walk, or do a beach workout. At the same time, you’ll see people winding down their all-nighter and finishing their last beer.”
If you’ve ever done a run in Rio 5K, 10K, you have everybody who’s still drunk from the night before along the beach cheering you on. It’s the best.
Single In Brazil
We want to talk a little bit about being single in Brazil, being single in Rio in particular. How are singles viewed in Brazilian culture? You both have lived in the United States so you have a contrasting perspective. This show tends to be US-focused. What’s the state of being single in Brazil? Is it easy? Is it hard? What do people think of you? What are the myths? What are the stereotypes?
This is a very open city. It’s a very culturally open place. I think large cities in general in the world have lots of opportunities for people to be maybe different from smaller towns, but Rio is at a different scale level. You can be solo, whether it’s through divorce or never choosing a partner or any other. Nobody will question you if you’re in the daily rhythms of life. You might come from a conservative family where you get that questioning, but you won’t get it from the city at large. It won’t be part of your daily life in that way.
Why?
I don’t know. I was married and when I got divorced and visited the States, I would get that, “I’m so sorry.” I’m like, “I’m not. Why are you sorry for me?” They’re making me feel bad for something that I feel good about. Here, I never got that. Not once at any point. It’s the way it is. Similarly, I have a daughter and I’ve raised her here. I’ve never had that if you’re a single mom, that automatically means she’s going to be worse off in life for not having two parents at home in a traditional marriage. That’s not the case. She’s much better off for having been raised by a solo mom. She would say that. Her dad would say that. She was present and he was present. I think he’s solo too, to be honest, looking back.
I would agree. As everyone knows who is tuning in to some of the other episodes, I was also married and got divorced. Same experience. You saying this makes me think a little bit about why. I think it’s because the experience of being single in the US sucks. I’m going to be real. I’m sorry but I get it. Listen, everyone. I am supportive of the solo community. I love this project because the US needs this project because truly being single in the US sucks.
The social life, the social scene, and even having a healthy sex life, it’s a very different dynamic in the US. I experienced it because I got divorced when I was here. I went back to the US for months at a time to pick up my life and it sucked. During that time, it wasn’t any fun to be single in the US. It was a lot more work. I think going out for example at night, meeting people more organically, and having a healthy sex life wasn’t as easy, fluid, and organic as it is here.
As you mentioned, Brazil, Rio is quite warm. There is this heat. People are a lot more comfortable with their sexuality and I don’t want to say this because I think Brazilians are overly sexualized, which bothers me a lot. It’s something that I was even bullied a lot growing up saying I’m Brazilian. “You guys run around naked with monkeys on your shoulder?” No, but there is this certain comfort with sexuality.
I give this comparison. I’m in the US and I go to a bar. I’m there all night and I haven’t seen one person kiss anybody at this bar. This is so sad. In Brazil, you cannot go on the street without seeing two people making out somewhere. I know that there are fans of no PDA, but it’s nice to see that. You feel like the idea of romance and also the idea of connecting with people isn’t reserved for a couple. That space is open to a single or solo person, and that’s nice.
I was only there briefly. I did a little bit of dating app work while I was there. I was pleasantly surprised, especially contrasting it with the current state of American dating in terms of the warmth of the connections. There are two stories I have. One is I’ve never experienced this anywhere, swiping in any other country.
There were some women that I connected with but because the trip was so fast and my schedule was so full, I wasn’t able to connect. I sent my regrets. I said, “I’m leaving. Unfortunately, we weren’t able to meet.” The women were so gracious about it. One of them was like, “It wasn’t meant to be.” Another was essentially saying, “If you ever come back.” They didn’t view it as a failure. They didn’t have to do it as a front that didn’t work. The graciousness was so heartwarming.
The other one was when I was walking down the street one day, and there was a woman, walking and talking to her friend. I noticed her and she noticed me. She straight up said hello to me and greeted me in a little bit of a flirty way. My head almost exploded because I was like, “Should I stop and turn and talk to her?” I didn’t know what to do because this is completely off-limits behavior in our current post-me-to world. That warmth touched me in my brief interactions. What should I have done?
I think you should have said hi.
I did say hi. I didn’t stop and chat.
I will say this as maybe a caveat or something more negative. I guess there’s no other right way to say this but I’ve gotten forcibly kissed multiple times.
It swings too far the other way.
It does swing too far the other way. Here, it’s a give and take. This movement in Brazil happened because men needed to control themselves a lot more and it worked. To me, it worked in women’s favor. I have a whole opinion about how the apps are getting in the way of a more organic balance of post-this movement. How do we now learn how to have respectful conversations and meet people organically because the apps have now become a bit of a safety net?
I’ll take the warmth over anything, but it’s also difficult. I’m sure some people appreciate the distance, the space, and these options, especially when I run on the street and it’s frustrating when I’m getting hit on all the time if I’m running or I’m trying to do a physical activity. It’s difficult. In a more simple way, it’s an easier and more organic space to meet people here than it is in the US. Being solo here is a little bit easier. Even making friends and building a community is a bit easier.
Theresa, you’re characterizing yourself as a no way, and Monique as a new way. It sounds to me like Rio works for both of those styles of soloness. You don’t get pressure to couple up. You don’t get that, “That’s too bad. You’re alone.” Monique, you get to have a little bit more of an open-minded place where if you want to make out with someone in a bar and then say good night, they go on their way, and you go on your way. That works.
Relationship Status
I think for sure. I’ve become more of a no-way as I’ve gotten older because my life is so great. It’s more like I’m a 60% no way, 40% new way. I think I’ve always been a new way. I didn’t know how the terms for that. When I was sixteen and my friends were all getting into high school, it was like, “When do you want to get married?” I’ve heard conversations like this on your show. People are like, “When are you going to get married?”
I remember saying, “I don’t think I can find somebody.” I cannot imagine evolving next to the same person. I felt like that would be too constraining, and then I said, “I want to have a daughter.” I ended up getting married in my mid-20s. We didn’t want to have a wedding. We want to have a party without any of the legal bits. There was a new way to vibe to what we were trying to do. Ultimately, my ideal today is I like a real connection, whatever that is.
That’s part of the reason I feel very solo. It is because I like to connect to everybody to as many people as possible. I don’t mean that romantically or sexually. I mean that I like to try to understand people. I’m a fan of Popular Psychology and Neuroscience. My undergrad was partially Anthropology. I work with people from very different backgrounds for me. My work is all about building networks, connecting people from very vulnerable situations with one another, and building solutions together. I love humans.
I love learning about people. I love connecting with people. I would enjoy romantic relationships where I felt that. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve had fewer of those and more time not on my own but with friends, collaborators, and neighbors. I become naturally more of a way where I don’t want something that’s going to interfere with that. It would have to be unique and I’m open to that. I’m moving progressively where my no-way quotient is growing and my new-way quotient is declining. It might be very common. I don’t know among other people though.
I think so.
Rio is a great place for that. Everything can be up in the air and it’s fine. Nobody is questioning you. You don’t need to be in a box.
I have the same feelings when it comes to a new way or no way. The truth is if I cannot find a situation that fits, I’m going to be in no way. I’m going to grow my quotient or whatever is going to get there. I relate in so many ways like I want to be a mom. I love to be, but not in the traditional nuclear family sense. I’m very much in a raw way trying to figure it out. I actively developed feelings for people, trying this whole falling in love thing, and figuring out what that means to somebody who doesn’t want what most people want.
I will say one thing in Rio. Being in Rio allows you to do that, but I still think similar to other places which is why we need this movement so much. It is that it’s still not easy to find people that are doing the same thing. You can find people that accept what you’re doing. It’s very Catholic. We’re in Latin America, so things are still quite traditional. I’m not going to sugarcoat that. It’s much less progressive than it is in the States, especially with the queer community. There’s a lot to evolve in Rio and Brazil in general.
We are only speaking about Rio. I mean Brazil has so many areas that are so much less progressive and so much less accepting about anything other than the nuclear family. I know that has been a struggle with quite a few of my friends, but I think that I can be here as a no-way. It doesn’t mean that I’m going to find people who are going to be living similar lives. If that was the case, I would have to go elsewhere. Something that hit home with me when we met was like, “Was it Rio or is it a relationship?” I think if I’m going to find my ideal person, it’s not here. I was like, “I think I understand.”
I have this quote from Theresa that I’m going to read that she put in an email. The abstract is Theresa chose Rio over a marriage.
Twice.
I only know one of these times. “My last serious relationship involved the marriage proposal and I got choked up and said, yes, but only after asking him to please never ask me to move or give up the work that I do. He lives in Australia. Needless to say, the relationship didn’t last much longer.”
That was after my marriage. When my marriage ended, I thought to myself, “If I want another marriage, I think I’m going to have to leave Rio.” We didn’t even talk about sexism, machismo, and all that very much, but it’s hard to find men who are fully equal partners or whatever version of that, however you want to term it. I thought to myself, “Am I going to leave?” I came here before my marriage. I chose it before my marriage. I didn’t plan to get married. It’s that when you come out of a marriage, it’s very easy to think that’s what you’re supposed to do. I hadn’t had the time yet to reflect on what I wanted. As I was going through that reflection, I did question myself about marriage or Rio, and I chose Rio.
I had a conversation with a woman who’s 29. She decided to release ends at the end of the year and she’s going to go somewhere else. She’s young and she wants to see the world and experience new things. I was talking to her about these different models you could have about how you want to live your life. You could choose a career for example, and then you build your life around your career. You could choose a relationship and build your life around a relationship, or you could choose a place and build your life around the place.
You may do all of those things across the lifespan that the traditional model of growing up, getting a job, getting married, having kids, and living and being in the place within 25 miles of the place you were born is no longer the case in a flat world. You two are highlighting some pros and cons of choosing a place and then figuring out those other elements. Fortunately, that place has many of those elements and many of those possibilities very clearly.
I think living in Rio and building my life around it is also picking people, and this is where being solo resonates. As you said, the people are warm. My priority isn’t partnering up with one person. I want to be somewhere where I connect with the people and where there is a sense of community and belonging. That’s what Rio gives. In my current situation, I feel like I live a dream.
I live in Copacabana. I have three of my closest friends who live all within a ten-minute walk from me. We all live within four blocks of each other. My uncle lives like two buildings up. I never thought that as someone who travels and is very nomadic, I could live this life. I have this chosen family of people, connections, and communities that I’m creating. As far as finding new hobbies, I decided to be a little crazy and train for an Ironman, checking it off my bucket list. It was so easy for me to get to the beach and find a group to train with, and they embraced you like you’re family.
I’ve met you just now but I’m giving you a hug and a kiss and we’re together. This is it, and they care about you. It’s this culture where I’m picking the people, I’m picking the place, and I’m building my life around it. I’m trying to figure out the romantic piece. I wonder what the difference is between generations. I see how things are shifting but I always think it’s funny. I fell for people who still are not living in Rio which is on brand for me, but it’s also nice if I can live my life here and have my romantic partnerships and relationships elsewhere.
It’s so funny that’s part of the reason people are so obsessed with your relationship status. It’s nice that they’re less so in Brazil or at least less so in the major metropolitan areas than in the United States, for example. Part of the obsession besides that it’s culturally so important is it so difficult to do it.
If you think about it, no one is like, “How are you doing with your group of friends? Do you have a lot of friends?” No one ever asked those questions in part because friendships can be difficult and certainly, people struggle at times. There is something easier about friendships. They’re easier to navigate. They’re more stable. They’re less legislated. The pressures are not on to the same degree.
There’s even something about careers. You feel like you have a bit more control. If you’re in Hollywood and being an actor or something like that, it is going to be fraught and filled with turmoil and challenges, but there is this focus on people’s love life in part because there’s so much entropy when it comes to this.
What I hear both of you saying is you’ve found a home, a place that fits better than the United States and you know this because you’ve lived in both. It gives you career opportunities that are meaningful and opportunistic. It gives you these warm, loving, and dynamic people to spend time with. It’s not as judgmental about your willingness to bend or break the rules, so the relationship escalator. While it’s not ideal perhaps for building romance, that’s okay because you’re okay. You’re comfortable with your soloness.
Well said.
That’s something that struck me as I sat with the two of you. It makes me so happy when I’m with people who are where they want to be, doing what they want to do, and comfortable with who they are. It is surprisingly rare in some ways because the world is often telling you that you’re not doing the right thing and that you’re not living the way you want to live. The fact that this is a place that has, of course, challenges. The Gini coefficient is noticeable in Rio. I heard stories from my occasional date about the machismo and the challenges in Latin America. It also felt like a vibrant place that was growing, and there was opportunity in a sense.
As a solo, I correlate this to being very independent. Give and take, it has always challenges, like safety in Rio. Everyone talks about it. Peter, you can say it off the rooftops. You had a good time. You were able to enjoy it. You weren’t afraid and I like to emphasize that, but then Rio is one of the most dangerous cities. It’s not somewhere that I’m just going to walk around anywhere at night by myself.
There is the sense of needing to take care in that way but I do think it comes with its caveats, but I do agree. I think it’s quite vibrant and quite welcoming. We’re speaking from our lived experience. This is what’s nice about this episode. This is our lived experience with a place. Everything can be a little bit different.
Singles In Communities
I want to ask you about these communities that you work in. You’re in them, boots on the ground, spending time. What about the singles in those communities? What is happening with that community around this clash of traditional values, Catholicism, getting married, and having babies with this more free-flowing openness that Monique was talking about?
It’s a big city and it offers all these possibilities to people if they can find them. We’re very diverse. I mentioned there are a thousand times. Information doesn’t flow. They’re controlled often by these militias, these off-duty police mafias that don’t allow information to flow. You’re constantly up being very conservative in these particular communities.
Others are much more creative and artistic and are huge producers of culture. Most of the culture in Rio is produced in favelas. Most things you associate with culture in Rio are produced in favelas. It’s very diverse, first of all. There are many single mothers which is common in the culture. That’s part of the reason it’s so accepted nowadays because it is derived from sexism, the machismo. At the same time, in Brazil, a majority of women are now the most educated in the country. They go to university or graduated with high school degrees.
This is inside favelas as well. Young people in favelas who now have access to universities and are choosing to go back to their communities and improve will have a much more open worldview. There’s a lot of dynamism in favelas and in the city as a whole. It’s hard to generalize. You mentioned building our lives around a place or work. I have built my life around a mission and a sense of calling that involves a place, but more than a place, that involves the people of that place. It’s a commitment to these people and not the place in and of itself.
Tying all of these bits together, that sense of a mission, but then also being in a place with this historic culture of sexism that has also generated discomfort or this high degree of single living but an increasing claim because women are now increasingly educated and running for office and so on. You have this whole dynamic happening that allows for a solo lifestyle in general to mainstream at some level. There is a potential for mainstreaming of solo here. I don’t know if you’re announcing this or have. Your book is going to come out in Portuguese. It’s one of the countries that’s on the show.
It is. Yes.
Are we talking about this on the show?
I think it’s okay. I don’t think it’s a secret. I don’t know when it’s happening. I got an email that says it’s going to be in Portuguese.
I was very excited. To me, it made perfect sense because this is a place where it’s happening already organically, especially led by women who are empowered in a context of sexism, and who are finding a way to make their lives their own. Anyway, I guess that’s my reflection back to you on your question. I’m not sure if I fully answered it.
That’s wonderful. I would love to be big in Brazil. It would be fantastic to do a book signing in Rio. I want to ask for a quick follow-up. What you’re describing, I’m seeing in the United States, 60% of undergraduate and graduate university students or women, for example. There is a dark side to the rise of women, which is there are a lot of struggling men, especially young struggling men. We’re seeing it in the United States. This seems to be the case also. I don’t believe that this is zero-sum, but it appears to be that way at the moment.
We’re celebrating the rise of women. That has been fueling the rise of singles more generally because women now have a choice, which is wonderful. You used to have to marry to survive, and now that’s not the case. Is that same thing occurring where there’s concern about young men in Brazil falling behind, not engaging, and not working? There are some clear indicators of this in the US and I don’t know how broadly this is happening.
There’s a lot less conversation so far because we’re still very much in the period of women finding their power. I find myself reflecting on what you’re describing here and thinking this is happening too, but there aren’t people talking about it very much yet. I’ve heard inklings of it. I don’t know if Monique, with her work, may have more to say about this.
Not necessarily in my work. I don’t have any data to back it up. I don’t know how things are happening statistically. I do think that in comparison to the US, especially with women’s empowerment, Brazil is behind. There are still so many more households where there is this male-female dynamic that’s problematic. I still run into this even in relationships amongst friends where the dynamic is something, but the good part is that similar to the US, the conversations around more equal partnerships and alternative ways of relating to one another are rising.
In the same way in the US, polyamory and all of it has gotten its hype. It shows that people are looking for different ways to be in relationships and pursue relationships. It is a conversation personally maybe among my group and I don’t know if it’s relevant to share. It’s my lived experience, especially with the rise of a lot of people seeking therapy, especially my generation. It is the push for men to do so and how amongst men, there aren’t these same conversations.
I hope that the conversation starts because I identify as bisexual. If I’m thinking about a future with a man, I want these conversations to happen right now. I cannot find that because in the space of women, it’s a little bit different, but for men, I’m not going to look for that. I’m not going to find deep connections if these conversations aren’t happening either and this development isn’t happening.
I had an episode that we titled becoming bisexual. These were women who later in life were embracing their bisexuality. If I remember correctly, some of the motivation was an opportunity for perhaps healthier relationships with women than they had had traditionally with men. There’s a meme that you see on Twitter every so often like, “Things men will do instead of going to therapy.” It’s like these outrageous things.
It’s a bit tongue and cheek but I think you’re right. There isn’t the same conversation around self-care, for example, and about working on your emotions inside. I always say the patriarchy oppresses men too. This idea that you have to be tough, man up, and things like that stunt growth. The more that we can tackle these topics, the better off communities will be, the better off society will be. I always say that society is only as strong as its weakest gender. Whether that be men or women, it doesn’t matter. We have to pay attention to the floor and see if we can rise the tide so to speak.
A Brazilian Woman
I want to end by doing something you two are unprepared for. You have become friends. You are comrades. Theresa has been a little bit of a mentor for you, Monique. I’m sure for you, Theresa, Monique has ejected this vibrancy into your life. She’s sucking the marrow out of life, which is so wonderful. Either of you can go first, but I want you to ask the other one the question that I should have asked here.
Monique, I guess I’ve been going through the weeds a lot in my own life because I’m twenty years older than you and I’m going into my second adulthood now. I know you’re much younger. It will be different and I guess that’s why I’m curious. I’m curious how when you were small from your Brazilian mother and the women in your family or your matriarchs, what was the image of a woman that was drawn for you of what you should become, how are you different from that, and where did you find the strength to be who you are today?
My mom and my grandma raised me together, and my dad was slightly less present, but still there. The picture painted for me was a solo woman. I got a bit emotional because my mom and my grandma never pressured me on the relationship front. They were never like, “Do you have a boyfriend?” Unfortunately, my mom and my grandma spent a lot of time protecting me from men for a lot of reasons, What was painted for me was two women who came to the US solo.
My mom went to the US when she was 24 with $200 in her pocket and subjected herself to work that none of us could even imagine and build a life for herself. Until today, she is a solo woman because she said, “If I’m in a relationship, I want to be married.” She has her religious beliefs. She has her values. She’s like, “If that’s not what I get, then I’m good by myself.” She doesn’t need that. That’s what she painted for me.
My grandma was an immigrant twice over. I never met my grandpa. She was very much in love her whole life with him, but then without him felt so fulfilled by me with her. They both showed me a solo motherhood and what that could look like. Even though we could have differences in values, interests, and beliefs, it encouraged me to do whatever I wanted to do, as long as I had a plan.
Even on my flight to my move back to Brazil, my mom spent time distancing herself so she wasn’t as emotional so that I could go in peace. She supports my every move even though we’re so different. I think what I needed to overcome was this debt of needing to stay in the US and needing to follow a specific path because I wanted to give them everything for doing that for me. That’s maybe what I needed to deconstruct to spread my wings. I hope that answered your question.
That’s wonderful.
Challenges Of Solo Living In Rio
She got me so emotional that I almost forgot my question. My question for you is maybe a little bit less steep. I don’t know. I’ve been feeling a lot of pressure lately ever since doing things like identifying as a specific type of person, maybe like a solo, even saying here as bisexual, saying here what I want and what I don’t want. The point is I want to be open to learning. I’m open, but when you think about identifying as solo. I don’t know if there’s maybe something more vulnerable or maybe something hard that we don’t often talk about, something that’s desired from you. At one point, you desire to explore and understand or even want that maybe doesn’t fit the solo life.
I guess the purpose of this question comes from a space of it’s easy and glamorous for us to sit here and say we love being solo in Rio and being a single mother and living this life because we have to advocate for it, we don’t want to show the weak spots because people like to poke at them. That’s the reason I guess. To me, this community is a safe space for people who believe in this solo movement. I wanted to hear from you. What is that thing that is maybe a little bit hard about being solo in Rio?
I might have alluded to it a little bit and maybe we can dig into it a little bit. There is a sacrifice involved that I would like to be a new way. I would like to have a worthy and worthwhile relationship. Not necessarily live together, not necessarily be together all the time, and not necessarily have to check in every day. I’m solo in all of those checkboxes and I would be happy to have something. To have a real connection, I like the complicity of this partner in crime. I don’t have that.
I have that with my daughter, but not with a romantic partner. I have had that at times in my life, but not in a way that allowed me to be true to myself. That’s where I embraced being solo maybe 5 or 7 years ago. Before the show, I was using the term because of a guy I dated. When I described myself to him, he said, “Do you know about solo poly?” I researched it and I was like, “I don’t know about the poly part, but I’m definitely the solo part.” I was somebody whose mission or who has things in their lives that are their primary relationships with the world that are not necessarily a partner. Maybe poly or maybe not, that’s not as relevant to me. That’s all flexible.
As I said, I like connection and every connection is unique. I believe in the uniqueness of human connection and trying to be open to that. It’s not about the poly or the monogamous or any of that, but the solo resonated for me. What I realized after that was all these relationships. I know I’ve heard you speak about this Peter. It’s the sense that you had these failed relationships and it was because something was wrong with us. I started noticing and looking back, and my last relationship, he’s the person who sent me your podcast.
We ended that maybe three years ago. What I realized after him was that something in me would cut relationships off when they started cutting me off. What I mean by that is they weren’t allowing me to be my full self. Part of this is from having an identity between cultures, having a complex identity that’s hard to box and it’s hard to find people who fully get it. By being with a partner, sometimes you feel like you have to give up parts of yourself. I couldn’t do that.
It goes against the fiber of who I am. Whether nicely or not nicely, I would end up ending the relationship in some way as I felt the threat to my identity and my passions, missions, etc. Going back to your question, I would love to find somebody that I could have a new way of relationship with or more than one person. That’s where I trend lately. It is a little bit of different relationships that are more on the casual side, but that’s not my ideal. I don’t know if any of this is Rio. I feel like it’s 2024.
It’s being who I am in the world and my background. People are increasingly diverse in who they are. People move and marry people different from them and have children, and then they raise between two families. Maybe there’s a stepmom. People’s identities are getting more and more complex. Finding that connection with one person becomes harder and harder. If you want to stay true to who you are, it may require you to explore being solo and invest in that. That’s where I’ve ended up at this point anyway.
This is wonderful. I was like we don’t need me. We could let you two run the show. One of the things that I’m starting to notice as I have more conversations with people who recognize their soloness and are comfortable with it or happy with it is in line with almost exactly with the feeling that I hear coming from the two of you, which is it doesn’t make things simpler. It’s not a simpler path. It’s a more complex path.
It’s not an easier path either but it’s a more authentic path. It’s one that you can be more comfortable with the fact that not everything is perfect. The stories the world tells us and the stories we often tell ourselves are, “Things are hard now but if I keep trying and if I keep working at it, and with a little bit of luck, it’ll be less hard later.” Anyone who has gotten married has realized very quickly that there are many great wonderful things about marriage but it’s not this blissful place of ease and no troubles.
It’s just a different set than you had when you were before. Theresa, I know you’re a Buddhist and I’ve been reading lately about Buddhism. One of the things that the Buddhists do very well is they recognize that suffering is part of the human condition and that you have some control over how you react to it. You have some control over it to the degree that you activate it. I like this thirst metaphor. You have things that you want to happen and the world doesn’t always give them to you.
The nice thing about being solo, to Monique’s point about her mother and grandmother, is that when they were partnered, they made the best of it. When they were unpartnered, they made the best of it. They were able to shift. They had enough flexibility within their identity and their values that neither was seen as a failure and neither was seen as a success. It was just a different state of being. I sense that from our conversation here, which is life will never be perfect. Even if you’re in the perfect place for you, there are some imperfections. I think that Brazil in general and Rio in particular is a perfectly imperfect place.
In the end, everyone will tell you that in Rio, you have nothing coming in at the end of the day, but you know how to be happy, have a beer, and move forward. People in the city know how to be happy and make the most of every moment, regardless of where you’re at. That’s what being here makes life a lot lighter.
Monique and Theresa, I’m very happy for both of you. Thank you for bringing your experiences together. I’m thrilled that you too have been brought together. It warms my heart.
Thank you for that.
Thank you, Peter. We would have never met without you. Thank God for this movement and it’s great to finally meet you.
It’s so fun. As you know, I always end the show with cheers, but what do people say in Brazil instead of cheers?
Saude, meaning health.
Saude.
Important Links:
- Monique Murad – LinkedIn
- Theresa Williamson
- https://PeterMcGraw.org/truth-or-truth-with-monique-murad
- https://PeterMcGraw.org/freedom-in-community/
- https://PeterMcGraw.org/becoming-bisexual
About Theresa Williamson
Theresa Williamson, 49, is a city planner, community organizer and environmentalist. In 2000 she returned to her native Rio de Janeiro where she founded a nonprofit, providing strategic support to Rio de Janeiro’s favela community organizers. She identifies the solo path as central to allowing her to commit so deeply to this transformative, growing body of award-winning activism. A lover of sticking to a constant, steep learning curve, of evolving, and a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism, Theresa sees the solo path as a way to embrace all of life’s possibilities and connections, while respecting one’s own identity and limitations.
About Monique Murad
I am Monique Murad – I’m 27 and living in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I was born and raised in Los Angeles, CA, daughter of Brazilian immigrants, an only child, raised mostly by my single mom and grandma.
I received my Bachelor’s degree in International Studies, and my Masters in International Affairs with a focus on Economics from UC San Diego. Since graduate school, I’ve worked in research and consulting in the areas of business to business markets, corporate and federal strategy and culture development, international development and corporate social responsibility.
I love to climb, dance, be in the ocean, spend time with my people, and am a bit of an inspiration addict. In Rio, I am in the process of becoming the new host of their Creative Mornings chapter – a global monthly speaker series that seeks to bring together the creative community, celebrating the idea that everyone is creative. I am in the process of a (celebratory) divorce, and joyfully pursuing an intentionally solo life that feels most authentic to me.