Inspired by Peter McGraw’s appearance on the SavageLove Podcast, he invites Julie Nirvelli into the Solo Studio to answer some listener questions.
For access to a bonus question, sign up for the Solo community: https://petermcgraw.org/solo/. Cheers!
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Listen to Episode #222 here
Listener Questions #1
Welcome back. I appeared on Dan Savage’s Savage Lovecast and noticed how often he responds to readers’ questions, so I thought I’d experiment and invited a familiar guest into the Solo studio to ask some questions and provide some answers. My guest has been on too many episodes to mention, but I’m sure you will recognize her. She’s my soul sister. Welcome back, Julie Nirvelli.
Thank you. I’m excited to be here, as always.
As I like to say, let’s get started.
I should have said it. Let’s get started.
Do you want to read the first one? It came from someone you know.
My friend Jeff attended the Solo Salon that we did for your book launch and it was life-changing. It was so eye-opening to him. He was excited to be there and be exposed to this. When you ask the community for questions, I sent him an email saying, “We’re looking for questions.” This is from Jeff. It’s a little bit long because he’s thinking and asking questions.
Happy Solo Vs Damaged Solo
“I wonder how many people are solo because they genuinely want to be more confident and independent or are used to being single most of their lives to those that are solo because of relationship damage and a fear of being back in a relationship. Even reading the feed on the Solo platform, it almost felt like some are saying they are happy to live a solo life post-divorce, but are they REALLY happy? Is it freedom for some to say they are solo or is it the truth? I‘m curious about the percentage of people who are truthfully solo versus ones masking the truth that they want to be in a relationship but are scared. Maybe that’s a bit judgy statement. LOL.” That’s from Jeff.
We’re off with a bang.
I love this question.
I do, too.
Why do you love it?
Here’s why. I have this tendency I got from my second book, which is The Reversal. How do you think in reverse in this way? The first thing I wrote down in response to this was, how many married people say they’re happy with their marriages but want to be single?
As Jeff says, what percentage of people?
What percentage of married people say that they’re happy with their marriages but want to be single?
That was a great question.
It’s an impossible question to answer.
Many people could be feeling stuck there. They financially can’t break away or whatever it is.
They have children. They’re scared. There’s a bigger question to this question. We can get into this.
I do want to get into the weeds of it.
I do, too, but there’s this question of, are you living your life authentically? Whether you’re single and saying you want to be single, or you’re married and saying you want to be married or you’re single and saying you want to be married, or you’re married and which is probably the most rare of the options, saying that you want to be single, in a sense.
That is, are you being honest with yourself about who you are, what you want, and what is good for you? Are you able to not just be honest with yourself but also be comfortable sharing it with the world to the degree that you need to? My general take is if someone says they’re happy, unless their behavior indicates otherwise. I take them at their word. If someone says that they’re happy being single, then I say, “Congratulations.” If they say they’re unhappy being single, I say, “What can I do to help?” I do think that’s an important realization for folks to have, which is that their form of happiness may not be popular.
This idea of are people damaged, what I think of in your case is my stepmom. You have a pretty close relationship with her.
She’s been an incredible mentor and supporter of me.
Very much so, and at the same time, when you were starting the Solo project, you’ve been a bachelor all these years. We’ve known each other for many years, so you’ve known my stepmom for many years as you and I became closer. You’ve spent Thanksgiving with us, so she knows you pretty well. Her feeling like, “Peter’s just damaged and that’s why he is this eternal bachelor. If he would work then he could find that beautiful relationship that he deserves.” I was always defending like, “Why can’t his goal or his needs or desires be different than yours?” My stepmom’s been with my dad for several years.
Very happily.
They are very happy. They appear to be very happy.
We have to take them at their word.
We do.
Eventually, she came around, at least in the sense that she stopped quizzing me, asking me about it.
She has stopped asking me, too. She’s accepted it. She’s given up hope.
The issue is I’m damaged. We’re all damaged in some way. You could be damaged in a relationship.
You could be so damaged that you want to be married because you need that “security” or whatever.
Support. I do think there is a little bit of this idea of too much damage. I would say this. There are people who are in the Solo community and they are better off being single than in a relationship. In part because they have had tumultuous relationships. Their relationships put them off balance. They’ve been in abusive relationships.
They’ve been sexually assaulted. They’ve been beat up. We have this belief that a relationship is a panacea of sorts. There are bad people out there in the world that you can marry and there can be bad matches with good people in the world. While the first one can be very damaging, the second one is not pleasant either. You’re constantly like, “Here’s this wonderful person. Here’s this good person. Why can’t I make this work?”
Our tendency is to think, “That’s because there’s something wrong with me.” There’s something rational about recognizing that you’ve made some unfortunate choices in the past and you don’t want to repeat them. You’re taking a break for now or forever from this style of relationship. I often say, “Are you having problems in all of your relationships?”
That’s more likely to be a you. You’re the common denominator.
That’s right. If you have good friendships, good familial relationships, and good professional working relationships, but you happen to struggle with an escalator. You say to the world, “I don’t think the escalator is right for me.” I believe you.
The key thing that you said is now or forever. You might be like, “The escalator is not right for me. I need a break.”
What was your reaction to this?
Part of the reason I love this question is because I have personal experience with this very concept. Again, you’ve known me for years. You’ve seen a lot of my not-so-great relationships. Years ago, I became ethically non-monogamous. I decided no more escalator-type relationships and I had a blast. It was great and so much fun dating. Lots of meaningful relationships, but more in that.
They got healthier.
As time went on.
It goes against what the common cultural belief is. That ethical non-monogamy is fraught. It’s not something that healthy people do. Dan Savage said, “You only hear about the failures when it comes to open marriages and open relationships and so on.” You never hear about the ones that are going swimmingly. You get this skewed belief. One thing I can say is that the amount of drama in your life has dropped when you embrace this other lifestyle.
That’s a whole other conversation about why, but I’m going back to Jeff’s question. I was reading the book You Are a Badass by Jen Sincero. A great book, but I had this total epiphany reading that book where she was talking about high-vibration people. I’d never of that concept. High-vibration is people who are very positive, have positive energy, happy and optimistic. You want to be around them and they have this great energy. I resonated with feeling.
You’re a high vibration.
You ask, is the glass half full or half empty? My answer is it’s overflowing. What are you talking about? The other part of that epiphany was she started talking about low-vibration people who constantly feel overwhelmed and life is a struggle. I had this realization that I’ve always dated low-vibration men, but all my friends are high-vibration.
I was looking at what. When I realized that, that was a huge epiphany. Within weeks of that epiphany, I met a guy with super high vibration. Amazing connection. Everything in my escalator days that I could have hoped for caring, giving, generous, funny, fun, and easygoing. All these great things. We started spending a lot of time together, and then I started thinking, “Maybe I’ve been doing this ethical non-monogamy as a reaction to all these failed bad relationships. Maybe now that I’m dating a high-vibration person. Maybe I can embrace.”
You think you’re out and they pull you back in.
What happened is, the way I can describe it, I started feeling like I was wearing an itchy sweater. I was just getting restless. It was like fingernails on a chalkboard. My behavior had become a lot like that of the escalator again, like seeing him 4 or 5 nights a week. What are we going to do this weekend? That question kills me. To me, that’s non-adventurous and exciting. As I started to realize, but again, Jeff’s question is, are you solo because you’re damaged or are you solo because you’re truly happy that way? Through this experience of meeting this great guy, I’ve come to the realization that I am truly happy as a solo. I dialed it back with him, and he’s not super happy about it but is open to it.
A little bit of Julie is better than no Julie. I’m sure he’s unhappy about it in part because it doesn’t fit a script.
That society is used to.
A lot of people do struggle, especially if they’re not well versed in this lifestyle with the idea that you might be seeing other people or you’re not. I often struggle with the hierarchy side of it. I not willing to put aside everyone else just because a new romance comes into my life.
Neither one of us has ever done that.
That can create some friction because that’s what people expect.
I even used the hierarchy in a discussion with him because he and I bonded at a music festival that we went to together. It’s coming time to buy tickets for that festival. I was supposed to go with two girlfriends and they both had family emergencies. I invited him at the last minute but that was what solidified our connection. Now it’s becoming time to buy tickets for the festival again and I said, “I need to see if the girls want to go and we do our girl’s trip.”
He said, “That would be hurtful to me if I wasn’t included in that because that’s a special thing for us.” I said, “This is where you’re talking about hierarchy because your feeling is, since we’re dating that you have priority over everyone else in my life of who I would go to the festival with. I can understand you’d be disappointed. I get that, but it was supposed to be a girl’s trip. I’m going to wait for them to defer and decide if they’re going or not.”
The one thing about Jeff’s question, it’s a common question because the cultural winds are blowing a particular way, which is towards the escalator. We’re told the people who ride the escalator are happy. We’re told that everybody ought to want this. If there’s a bunch of people saying they don’t want it. It’s easy to question that because it doesn’t fit your script.
Moreover, if you’re a little too unapologetic about it, it could be what is it saying is, “Doth protests too much.” People are single for lots of reasons. There are members of the solar community who could break either way. There are people who are in the SOLO community who would like to find their person. They’re just maize. I may find my person. They may want to escalate. They’re choosing it unlike a lot of people who are defaulting into it. I could see how you would have this perception. In general, it’s unpopular to say that you like being single. When you’re saying the unpopular thing, I’m more likely to believe you.
I’m grateful for this experience and revelation because now, I’m even more confident in that. I’m a solo and that’s who I am. That’s how I feel, so energized. I’m happy to be where I am in my growth.
Even being able to have the conversations that you had with this man, especially the last one. How revelatory is that to recognize hierarchy, to be able to have a compassionate conversation with him and say, “This doesn’t mean I don’t like you. It doesn’t mean that this festival is not meaningful and a good memory. It’s just I have obligations to other people who are also meaningful to me.” How liberating is it to be able to do that? If this person is a good match, you can create a container. It may be unusual for him. He seems like a quick learner, from what I understand. He’ll adjust because he likes having Julie in his life. A little Julie’s better than no Julie.
It’s been a huge growing opportunity for both of us. He’s had his eyes open to a new script and different ways of looking at things and because he has a lot of self-confidence, he’s been open to communicating about it and exploring it. Not shutting it down. We’ll see. It’s still ebbing and flowing. We’re still figuring it out. The main thing is we can communicate so well. Neither one of us had that before.
To go back to what you were saying originally, you have these two recognitions that go hand in hand. One is that you don’t want the full escalator. The other one is that you want a type of person, this high-vibration individual. What a wonderful recognition to be like, “I want to date people who are more like my friends.”
It’s great. It’s amazing.
Why don’t you read the next one because it’s a little more directed to me?
Trajectory Of The Solo Movement And Podcast Community
This one is from Nate. “What do you envision or predict for the life trajectory of this movement and this show community?”
I would say this would have been a good question for me years ago because I was such a planner. I was such a goal setter that I would have this big and hairy audacious goal that would make this huge and so on. I have much more modest expectations. I have said publicly that I envision this Solo project to be a ten-year project.
I said that about my humor project and it technically turned into a fifteen-year project. I do think there is something that I like about having chapters and having a potential terminal moment in part because it provides a bit of urgency. It recognizes that I only have so much that I can offer. I felt that way about the humor stuff.
Most of the best work was done early to mid-tenure of that project. You run out of ideas. You get stuck in your ways and you need to hand the baton to someone else. That said, both the movement and the show community are just going to steadily grow. I’m not expecting this exponential hockey stick. The reason for that is that the average person, even if they’re struggling with singlehood. They don’t recognize what’s happening. They don’t recognize how the world’s built for two and how arbitrary that is.
There’s another way.
If you’re Black or gay or a woman and you’re facing one of those isms. It’s very easy to see how that’s unfair. It’s very easy to feel the stereotyping, the prejudice, and the discrimination and then want to fight against it. There’s something a little different about being single. This came up in the Unmarried Equality episode, which the hypothesis is that because being single is changeable, it doesn’t have that same feeling.
If you’re a woman, you’re a woman, for the most part. This idea of like, “It could change.” It always feels liminal. If you’re Black, it’s not liminal. If you’re gay, it’s not liminal. It’s part of the culture that you don’t realize it, even if you’re feeling the friction. People do go out and look for resources. They find the show. The people who it resonates with, they join the movement or the community. We’re going to have linear growth. I don’t know how steep that’ll be.
There’s so much word of mouth, too. That’s got to be your biggest growth.
It’s huge. Search and word of mouth are the two biggest things. That’s how people find it. I search Google and Spotify. My friend told me about it. I’ve spoken to a number of people who were like, “I’ve bought the book for three different people.”
Maria Shriver was the first one to say that you were the leader of this movement when she interviewed you. I’m like, “We need to get her back in the mix,” then you’ll get your hockey stick.
That would help. That would be very nice. It’s funny. I certainly don’t see myself as the leader in any way, in part because there were good people doing good work before me. Bella DePaulo, in particular. I do feel like I’m contributing to a movement. I’m creating a voice that resonates with some people. I like that there are lots of voices because if you don’t like mine, you can go to Lucy Meggeson. You can go to Bella DePaulo and these other folks.
Amy Garan.
Shani Silver. She has the A Single Serving show. I would say that I don’t have grand plans at the moment. I am working on a secret project related to the movement. It’s a long shot. It’s a moonshot, but it would help if I pull it off. Otherwise, I’m going to continue to do the show and let it grow. I’ve got some thoughts about some events and to experiment with some other things.
I feel like I’m going to wait and see what the book does. I needed to write the book in order to submit my perspective. Also, to have this ready-made manual because if you come to the show, it can be overwhelming. It’s all over the place. It’s over 200 episodes. I feel like the book is a little bit of a guide, a little bit of a how-to, and the best of.
Do You Still Date?
It hasn’t caught fire, but my hope is that it picks up and that it does the work while I sleep, so to speak. Thank you, Nate. All right, next one. This is from Nicole and she asked, “Do you still try to date?” We already know the answer to that for you, Julie. “How do you get your intimacy needs met other than through friendships?”
I have to say this. I had a member of the community encourage me to do an episode on romance. I haven’t figured out how to do it yet. It’s on the back burner. She pointed out how she likes her solo life, but she still craves romance. How to do that given her soloness? We talk about sex in that way, but we don’t talk about romance in that way. I thought that was fascinating, but it was a bit of a blind spot for me. I acknowledge that’s been suggested. I haven’t done anything with it in part because I don’t know what to do with it yet, but Nicole’s question is a little bit related to that.
Dating can have so many different forms. That can be crazy different amounts of combinations.
Some people date primarily for sex. Some people date primarily for romance. People date primarily for companionship company. There’s a whole bunch of reasons why you want to date in the world. You still date. I still date half-heartedly.
I was like, “You’re pausing. What are you pausing?” Half-heartedly dating.
I’m not super aggressive about it, in part because I’m not a great match for a lot of the people who are dating, but most people still want to ride the escalator.
You need a Solo dating app.
That, I will not do.
I know.
I love the idea, in theory. I like this idea. How do you get your intimacy’s needs met other than through friendships? I had an interesting conversation with a woman with whom I’m very close. We’ve had a little romance. We’ve had a little sex. It’s was kind of a friends with benefits. It was a little bit of a dating thing, but both of us recognize that we’re best as friends.
At least, I especially feel that way. I adore her. She’s wonderful and we get along great. I said to her, “If you want sexy and/or romance from me, I can give that to you, but I want you to know that the friendship is probably what’s going to win out. I may lose some interest along those other dimensions, but for me, friendship is paramount.” It’s the top of the mountain.
I was saying how many of my other romantic relationships settled into a friendship primarily. That was the driver of our close connection. It wasn’t the sexual intimacy. It wasn’t the romance. What I’ve started to realize is I’m not aromantic. I do enjoy that, but it’s not like this other member of the community that I mentioned. It’s not something that I find myself craving.
If my sex life is active enough and healthy enough, I’m getting a bit of feminine energy and I’m getting some intimacy from that. I get so much connection, companionship and even feminine energy like our friendship from my friendships that I don’t feel like I need romance in order to thrive. I feel like that was a very helpful insight for me in part because a lot of the default is you’re supposed to be looking for this thing.
It’s supposed to be so good there. That’s why I say I’m dating half-heartedly. I have like one eye open. Maybe if I found someone to be a girlfriend type, but she’d have to be an unconventional thinker, very independent, and not intimidated by the fact that I have a show called Solo. I feel much more comfortable now with that realization.
Good. That was Nicole’s question.
Thank you, Nicole.
Time Spent Working On SOLO
Now, on to Steve’s question. He has two questions. “How much time do you, Peter, spend working on Solo each week and what does that involve?”
I’m going to say this. I don’t know and I don’t want to know.
It’s a labor of love.
Here’s why I treat the Solo project like I treat charity work like volunteer work. I finance everything. I don’t make money. If I start counting the hours, it can be very demotivating because I’m paying to work in a sense. Now that said, what does it involve? A lot of it involves cool things. I’m probably on the Solo community page once a day. Even if it’s just a lurk to make sure everything’s going smoothly or answering. I get some direct messages from people usually saying how happy they are to be there. It’s wonderful.
That’s your payment.
Honestly, that is the payment. Any email I get, text message, and direct message that says, “Thank you,” is huge.
It’s huge.
It’s wonderful. I thank everyone who’s ever taken the time to thank me for that. Some of these messages, oh my God. I have this intake form for the Solo community and it says, “What’s your story?” I read these stories and some of them are uplifting about how excited they are to find this and how liberated they feel by the movement. They feel like they found their people and community and how unapologetic they are. It’s great.
I would say this. I like pre-production. I like production. I don’t like post-production. I like identifying guests and prepping episodes. I don’t mind the scheduling. It’s usually not too difficult. I love taping. As an aside, one of my students who discovered my show asked me in class, “Peter, what do you like more teaching us or podcasting?”
I can’t have favorites.
I asked him, “Why do you say that?” He goes, “In the show, you’re laughing all the time. It seems like you’re having so much fun.” I find meaning in both activities. His observation is a good one. The show is much easier for me than teaching. I’m better at it than I am at teaching.
You get to shoot the crap with people.
I’m just in my groove. I don’t like the post-production stuff having to read an episode and make some fine-tuned decisions about some edits. I hate writing the description of the episode, loading it and dealing with my podcast company. The headaches that come when things don’t go well. I usually find that everything goes well until we get to post-production. If I’m going to throw more money at it, I need to throw it at that. It’s a substantial amount of time, but luckily, it doesn’t feel like work.
Becoming Friends With Julie
Steve’s question number two, “How did you and Julie become friends?”
We’ve told this story on the Friendship episode.
Probably, if not more. People would have to read all 200 and something episodes to have all that information.
We’re approaching our twentieth Friendsversary.
We are going to plan something.
We’re going to do something for our Friendsversary. It’s a simple story. Is it a simple story?
Yes.
It’s a simple story. You were my hot neighbor. I knew almost no one in town. I certainly didn’t have any friends when I arrived in Boulder many years ago.
We bumped into each other in the parking lot.
That’s right and you were friendly to me. I was much more into sports back then and I didn’t have a TV. I was like, “I’m going to go to a bar and watch a basketball game.” I knocked on your door and said, “Do you want to go?”
I said?
“Thank you, but I can’t. I’m going to Vegas for my unbachelorette party.” You had been divorced and you were going to Vegas to celebrate your divorce. I thought that was the coolest thing.
I was planning a party and we knew literally nothing about each other. I said, “I’m having a party.” I told you the date and you said, “I can help you plan an even better party.”
I said, “I’m a behavioral scientist. We can use science to create a better party.” You were like, “Let’s do it.”
We sat on my balcony and on my deck and the party we planned. You suggested the party should have a theme. It was such a great theme. Such funny things happen. It was a prankster party and everyone had to bring a joke or a prank to the party.
It was so fun.
Maybe that’s what we should do for our twentieth anniversary.
That’s a fun idea. Maybe we should recreate the magic.
That was pretty fun.
It was a great party and that kicked off our friendship. We were in our 30s. You had a big group of friends or a pretty sizable group of friends. We were both dating and it felt very friends-like in that show like, “What are you doing tonight? Some people are going here. Let’s go to Red Rocks.” It was a lot more improvisational. It was very fun. The thing that got us locked in was we got a ski condo. We did that for several years.
The ski dungeon.
The ski dungeon, we called it. We rented this ski condo in Frisco. There are two groups. My group is with you or your group with me and some of our friends, and then another group with some other young singles. It was pretty affordable and it was very fun. It was very social. That helped a lot because it was you and I who was running it. We worked closely together.
Good times.
How The Podcast Changed Peter And Julie’s Life
It was good times and here we are, my soul sister. Thank you, Steve. Next up is Jen from the Solo community. “What is something you have been doing more, less or differently as a result of doing the show?” You’ve been doing the show.
I’ve been doing the show. I’ve been doing a lot of things differently. It’s changed my life.
It has changed my life, too. I wrote down change my life.
Completely.
I know. It’s shocking when I reflect on it.
Some of the revelations I’ve had and the changes I’ve made, I am happier now than I have been in my entire life.
Me, too.
High five.
Why?
Largely, a lot of these changes have been a part of the things that you repeat or we repeat on the show, so ask for what you want. It’s huge.
By the way, I don’t even remember where I came up with that saying. I’m certainly not the first person to say that, but it came up probably in the world of relationships. If you don’t want all the trappings, all the rules, and all the agreements of the escalator, then ask for what you want.
Even if it has nothing to do with the escalator, ask for what you want.
In general.
I had been such a people pleaser and not ever putting myself first or asking for what I want. Now that I’ve been practicing it, it’s so easy and I’m so happy. I get what I want a lot of times.
The thing about it is it’s asked for what you want, but it’s not expect that you’re going to get it. You’re never going to get it if you don’t ask for it. Ask for what you want and be ready for someone to say, “No, I can’t do that.” You’re like, “At least I have clarity.”
A byproduct of asking for what you want is the amazing, open, and honest communication you can create with people. That’s been magic. I’ve had several people say to me, “I’ve never been in a relationship or had a relationship with someone where we can talk the way you and I do.”
Yes. I think I told you the story. This woman who I’ve been seeing. I’ve been seeing her again casually for about a year. She was over and I said to her, “I just want to check in. How are you feeling about us?” She’s like, “What’s wrong? Is everything okay?” I’m like, “Yes, everything is great, but I want to make sure that you’re happy.” She had never had someone say that to her. She was like, “What’s going on here?” She was appreciative that we could have that conversation. Once we got past the fact that she was like, “What are you doing?”
The check in is also amazing, too. The guy we were talking about earlier is the first one I’ve used that terminology. One day, I said, “It’s a good idea to have a check in every now and then. How do you feel about having a check in?” Half the battle is if you want to bring something up and you don’t feel super comfortable or you’re not sure how to saying, “I thought we could have a check in. How do you feel about that?” Now, he or I will say, “Let’s have a check in. It’s been a while.” We always have such great conversations out of those. It makes us feel closer and more intimate. I wouldn’t even have thought of that as it’s something I’m doing differently, but I am.
The nice thing about the check in is it invites feedback. You don’t have to wait for there to be a heavy moment. Regular check ins are a nice way to say, “I do want to bring up this or I’ve been thinking about that.” It could be very small. Suddenly, making a change within a relationship from a relationship design standpoint is not threatening. It’s welcome, like, “We get to address something. You’re not happy with something. Let’s see if we can make both of us happy or at least no worse off.” The relationship design stuff is huge and I needed to do the show to figure that out. I feel like that’s empowering. That makes for very healthy and honest relationships.
You have a couple of episodes about Relationship Design.
I’ve won in particular. That’s called Relationship Design, and I have a chapter in the book about it for anyone who’s curious. That’s one of the best episodes. The most useful episode is stand alone. There are many ways you could do relationship design. You don’t have to do it my way, but the principle of creating agreements is big. What else has changed for you?
What am I doing differently? We talk a lot about living more intentionally and that’s huge, too. I feel like life is freaking awesome. I crammed so much fun in, and it liberated me, I feel like. That’s not specific. I’m doing this more or less.
That’s a perspective you have. You’ve always been an optimistic person. You’ve always been an energetic person. Middle age can get you. It’s easy to fall into a rut. It’s easy to fall into the familiar and not keep sucking the marrow out of life. I’m happy to see that you’re maintaining that perspective.
Thank you. A mutual friend of ours went on a date. The guy said, “At our age,” and she was like, “As soon as those words came out of his mouth, I was done. We are not going.” If anybody who says, “At our age.” It’s like you’ve already given up. Stop that.
I think it’s Gen Z or Millennials that call it that the ick. It’s like someone says something and you’re like, “Ick.” A couple off the top, I’m unapologetic now. I thought I was comfortable with my singleness before I started this project, and that’s why I started it. Now I’m comfortable with it and I understand why I’m single and why it’s a good lifestyle for me.
Speaking of you being unapologetic, we could be in a restaurant having a meal or something. He will not lower his voice if he’s talking about anything that you normally might lower your voice for at the table. I’m looking around, and he’s getting loud.
Sorry, everyone. I feel less judgmental and much more open-minded. I would never have considered that to be a problem. I have done a lot of work understanding social norms, understanding the role of culture and how it’s designed to get us to behave and how it often wants us to be small and wants us to be very well behaved. I’ve never liked to be very well-behaved, even though the good little boy in me was well-behaved for a long time. I feel much more free to believe what I want to believe and to accept what other people are doing. Even if it wouldn’t work for me, but to marvel at their willingness to be unconventional.
As our friend Greg says, “Don’t yuck someone else’s yum.”
If there’s consent and if there’s no harm, you can do anything you want in my world. I will not just tolerate it. I’ll celebrate it. By the way, that creates this fun flywheel because now people tell me the stuff that they do, which is sometimes tremendously entertaining and enlightening. Sometimes, it encourages me to lean into my freakiness in a way. All of us have something about us that’s non-normative. It could be the hours that we sleep, the foods that we eat, a particular set of beliefs or lifestyles or sexual proclivity. It’s very easy to walk around feeling guilt and shame because you don’t fit in because the world is built for one way of doing things. What I want to know is, where’s your freakiness?
Let your freak flag fly.
How can we celebrate it? What can I learn from you that might open up possibilities for me? When I first started this, all the new ways Solo stuff. I had very little idea what was going on in those worlds, and it was exciting for people. Also, the other thing is like, all the no way singles. I had no idea it was such a large group. I didn’t know that it was just as normal to not want as it is to want because, despite my lifelong bachelorhood, I’m typically dating. I’ve done less dating since I started this show than when I started it.
The no ways being for the people who aren’t familiar with.
These are people who are not seeking sex and/or romance at the moment.
No way. Nothing. Not interested.
Working on other things.
Now or forever.
As I said earlier, they might be healing from something bad, but they might be in graduate school or living their best life with friendships, pets, family, or other important relationships.
Do we cover it?
Yes. Thanks, Jen.
Lessons From Being Single
Courtney, “Are there any little things you have learned while being a lifelong single that makes life easier? Anything that evens the playing field against couples or reduces the singlism you face.”
I’ll say this quickly. The big thing about being solo rather than single is your comfort in life choices and circumstances. You’re no longer waiting around. You don’t feel less than. You seek to solve your own problems. You recognize the possibilities and opportunities of singlehood. They’re different than partnerships, but they’re no less good. I find that to be the ultimate prophylactic against singlism because I fundamentally disagree with the premise that you’re a less man in that way.
I would say the other thing is, if you want to have the conversation with me because you’re worried about me, “Peter, I’m worried about you. Who’s going to take care of you when you’re old?” which, again, is well-meaning. I’m like, “Let’s go. If you want to talk about it.” That means we’re going to have to talk about the good, the bad and the ugly of marriage, too.
Now, most people don’t want to get into that because they’re just saying a well-meaning attitude to you, anyways. I feel like I have the data. I have the goods to say that single life and non-single life are different paths. Not one that’s better than the other. The only time a problem is when there’s a mismatch. When you’re in a relationship that’s bad, you won’t find a way out or you want to be in a relationship and you can’t make that happen. Those people deserve our grace, encouragement, and support. Thanks, Courtney.
Dealing With A Friend In A Toxic Relationship
This last question, we are not going to name the person because it’s a very recognizable name. We are removing the name to protect the innocent. This one’s a bit long as well, but it’s a good question. “I’m wondering how best to deal with a close friend downgrading our friendship very gradually. over time, when they become part of a couple, they also use me as a sounding gate when they have relationship issues whilst also expecting me to get along with their partner. There is also some emotional abuse from their partner. I’ve tried to help my friend end it, but they won’t/can’t.”
“I’ve also advised them to seek counseling as they tend to form close bonds with controlling people. My friend has told me part of the reason she won’t end it is that her partner has said they would end their life, which I do not believe. This person is very manipulative and my friend is an empath. This relationship is in its seventh year. I’m tired and sad for my friend. I have known my friend for fourteen years and we’ve been very close for most of that. I worry that the friendship won’t survive if they stay in this relationship.” There’s a lot going on there.
There’s a lot happening there. My first reaction to this is that it sounds very difficult for all parties involved. The friend is not doing well. The person who’s writing the question is not doing well. The friend’s partner is also not doing well. It’s a difficult triangle of sorts. We should acknowledge friendships can be messy. Relationships can be messy. The intersection of those things can be messy to begin with. It’s often not obvious what to do in those situations. Where would you suggest that she start?
Honesty. Coming from a vulnerable place, “I care about you so much as a friend and it pains me to see you in this type of relationship. I’ve tried to be supportive, but I worry about you. I don’t know what to do. It’s affecting our friendship. I want to support you. It’s hard on me.” Honest and from a place of compassion for that person’s situation. In a sense, you have to set a boundary, too, in a way. I’ve had those friends whose only thing they want to do is complain about their partner. It’s exhausting that that’s all you talk about.
I certainly can crowd out other good elements of the relationship where, suddenly, you’re serving as a de facto counselor in a sense. I always want to lead with honesty. It’s a dominating strategy. My first reaction is to say to the friend, as you said, “I care about you. I value this friendship. I want to see you happy. In my perception, you haven’t been happy in a long time.” That’s where I would start, which is, “I care about you and I’m concerned about you,” and then say, “I want to support you. I want you to have the right outcome with regard to this relationship. I’ll be very honest. I don’t know how to do that for you in part because we may have different solutions in mind.”
“At this moment, if I could rule the world, I would have you two break up because there’s not a lot of good that’s happening. I’m concerned that this is a relative relationship and so on. I don’t have a choice here. I’m just here to support you. What would you like me to do? What do you need me to do? If I can do it, I’ll do it. If it continues to enable you to make bad choices within the relationship, I may not be able to do it. I’m asking for this, but know I might not be able to continue.”
That would be amazing.
This is the other magical thing. I give this piece of advice a lot. I got it from my barber, Anthony Full, “Stop talking.” Stop talking and let your friend talk. Listen hard to what she has to say. It’s a very fine line to support someone you love but not enable them to make bad decisions. That means sometimes you have to say no to them and disappoint them while reassuring them that you care about them. The reason you’re doing this is because you think that by agreeing to it, it is going to make them worse off.
You could do what my first therapist did to me.
Which is what?
I was married in a terrible relationship, so abusive and horrible. She said, “Julie, I’ve done everything I can for you. When you’re ready to leave him, come back and see me and I’ll be here.” My therapist broke up with me.
By the way, that’s incredible because that therapist was getting paid to listen to you and decided to stop getting paychecks.
Guess who my first phone call was when I decided?
What a great gift. I will say this. I’m not a fan of friends in the case of a friendship.
You wouldn’t do that.
I get it. There are times when you’re tempted. You’re just like, “This is just draining me. It’s too much.” There’s a tendency to want to pull back, but the problem with pulling back is that you often push those people closer.
To their person.
That’s right. I do think it is okay to say, “I love you and I want to support you, but I got to be honest. All the talk about this relationship is making me unhappy. I’d love to spend time with you. I’d love for us to hang out and do things, but we have to have other topics of conversation. This cannot be a counseling session,” in a sense, because we’re supposed to be friends. Let’s do friend-like things in that sense.
I want this person to report back what they do.
I know. I would love to know it. It’s a very difficult situation and it’s a very uncomfortable conversation to have. It sounds like she’s having ongoing conversations. I can tell that all three of those people are struggling in that relationship.
If the underlying messages are love and compassion, a potentially amazing outcome will happen.
She finishes with, “I worry that the friendship won’t survive if they stay in this relationship.” That’s a possibility. One of the things that I’d like to say, as you were saying earlier about romance and forever, is I don’t judge the goodness of a relationship by its length or duration. If the friendship fractures because of the relationship, my thing is to do it gracefully, with compassion, and open the door like your therapist did, which is like, “If you find yourself in a different situation.” It should have come to that because I love my definitions.
What makes a remarkable friend? That is, they bring value to your life and vice versa. They’re high integrity and they’re anti-jealous. If someone’s not bringing value to your life or you’re not bringing value to their life. You can’t be friends. That’s so fundamental to what a friendship may be. They’re far away from that, but she is anticipating that if something doesn’t change, that’s the path that will head down. You can’t change other people. You can only change yourself. Maybe you have to start meditating. Start doing loving and kindness meditation. Finding a way to be helpful but detached from the outcomes.
That’s something that takes a while to develop. I have a friend who has some mental illness. She’s very self-aware and charming about it. One of the ways that I’ve been able to be a very big supporter is because I realize like, “I don’t have much control. It’s going to unfold the way it’s going to unfold and I’ll be there to support, but I can’t feel anxious about it. I can’t worry about it because I can’t control it in a sense.”
I can have this weird ability to help, listen and be involved without getting worn down because this is how life is for some people. It’s more difficult for some people and that’s unfortunate. I can do what I can do, but I can’t internalize all of this because it’s going to make me unhappy. I wish for the best. Our experiment is over. How do you feel?
I thought that was fun.
It was good.
How often does Savage question?
He does this stuff a lot. He gets some spicy stuff. I’ll try it again sometime. Give it a little moment. Next time, we’ll seek out some broader array of questions. These were a little bit relationship-focused. Some of their show focus. It was good, but I enjoyed it.
This may spark more questions. You can always field the questions, but who knows when the episode comes out?
That’s right. I can keep an ongoing thing. There’ll be an episode discussion for the SOLO community. There usually is. If people want to sign up at PeterMcGraw.org/solo, they can do that. I will, at some point here, post another call for questions and we can do it.
At any time, if you were reading this episode and you’re like, “I wish I would have asked that.” Send it in.
By all means, I always have a Word document that I’m working on. Thank you so much, Julie.
Thank you for having me.
Cheers.
Important Links
- Savage Lovecast
- Julie Nirvelli
- You Are a Badass
- A Single Serving
- Relationship Design – Past Episode
- LinkedIn – Julie Nirvelli
About Julie Nirvelli
Julie Nirvelli was born and raised in San Jose, CA and earned her college degree from Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. She has lived in Colorado for 18+ years. As a strong, independent and fun-loving person, Julie embraces the solo life. She is also a Solo sponsor, with her company Bachelor Girl productions, which offers you fun flirty t-shirts.