In this milestone episode, Peter McGraw reunites with fan-favorite Julie Nirvelli to reflect on 250 episodes of Solo and the rise of the Solo movement. Together, they look back on how far we’ve come, celebrate the viral success of the TEDx talk Stop Telling People to Get Married, and look ahead to what’s next for a world built for one.
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Listen to Episode #250 here
Episode 250: Looking Forward and Looking Back
Welcome back for this celebratory episode. I am joined by my soul sister, Julie Nirvelli, to celebrate the 250th episode of the show, and as we tend to on these milestones, to look forward and to look back.
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Welcome back, Julie.
Thank you, I cannot even believe it, 250.
Like five and a half years. A little more.
I was wondering that.
I launched Solo the last week of December 2019.
That is nuts.
Here we are. We’re taping this in August, and Julie and I are going to have dinner after this and jump in the hot tub in the pool. She’s going to give me a lot of advice on fashion, decorating.
Big life decisions.
See, as a bachelor, you need to whole friends in for the activities that most of the world outsources to a spouse.
You need that female energy.
Solo Episode 250 & The Ted Talk Impact
I do. I actually talk about this a lot, about desiring some feminine energy here and there, but I’m lucky. I get lots of it from my female friends. Last time we did this was Episode 200, and that coincided with the book launch. This episode celebrates another milestone, which is the TED Talk. I did a TEDx Boulder Talk that got upgraded, elevated to the TED platform, and it’s doing well. It has more than 600,000 views already.
I looked today because I wanted to say how many views we have. It’s bringing a lot of people into the movement, the Solo community. I used to get like an application 1 or 2 or 3 a week, which is still good, but it’s been triple that. For those of you who are interested, join the movement. PeterMcGraw.org/solo. It’s free to sign up. It has added a little bit of energy to the site. Most people sign up, and then they lurk and check it out every so often.
Even the comments section seems a lot more lively.
I think so. I think there are people who, in their application, will often say, “I thought I was the only one,” or “I found my people.” It’s a nice place to be yourself. Welcome and welcome to all of those new members, and hello to all the people who have been with us from the beginning.
I wonder who holds the record for listening to the most episodes.
There are a few people who have listened to every single one, which I don’t even want to do.
We should have them on the show.
Evolution of the Solo Podcast Journey
That’s true. It’s incredibly flattering for people who have stuck with it and seen it evolve. I didn’t realize this until someone pointed it out to me. He said, “You’ve been on a journey and your listeners have been on a journey with you, and they’re on their own journey.” I was like, “Yeah, I guess like I never set out for that to be the case.” I wasn’t like, “This is going to be my humor code where it was literally a journey. It was also like a scientific social experiment along the way. This was like, “I’m just going to launch a podcast that celebrates single living and talks about best practices.”
When you said the first episode was in 2019, I almost said how much we have evolved since then, but that’s exactly what you’re saying.
That’s what I’m going with this. Let’s talk about this because I was thinking about not only that it has been a journey for me, but it’s also been a journey for you, and we’ve been doing it together.
A 100%, which has been super cool.
For the listener, I was traveling recently, and Julie and I were catching up, and I said to her, “You know everything about me as far as I know, like anything important.” That’s because I trust you 100%. I would kill you if you ever disclose those secrets. No, I’m kidding. The reason everything, and some of my close friends, is that you don’t judge me. I’d be tempted to say, “If I were on this journey and you weren’t, we might have grown apart because we relate less well to each other, but I actually don’t think that’s the case.
Yeah, even if I were married.
If you were riding the relationship escalator and we’re all in on it, you would just be like, “That’s my soul brother. He’s not for everyone.”
“He’s doing his thing.” I support it.
I think that’s really nice knowing that it could have gone either way. I want to reflect on two things. The first thing is, how do you think you’ve changed the most as part of this solo journey?
How have I changed the most?
I did not prep Julie for this episode.
I think I have the concept in my mind, but putting it into words, go with the flow is not quite the right word. Acceptance, lack of expectations. That answer was more for the dating side of it.
That’s part of it.
Personal Transformation & Asking for What You Want
Here we go. Getting there. Fierce independence and growing into who I am and really evolving in general. That’s how I’ve changed the most. I’ve evolved. Maybe you should have prepped me.
I think what it says is you’ve changed dramatically.
Yes, that is fair.
You’re not like I’m a little tidier because of the tidying up episode. It’s like you’ve had this profound change in the way you interact with the types of relationships you have and the way you execute them.
That is very true.
I would say one of the things that you’ve really gotten good at is asking for what you want.
That’s very true.
Especially in dating relationships.
That’s 100 % from the podcast.
That’s great. I had a conversation with a younger guy who I think is a new way, but he feels uncomfortable being a new way. He’s a fighter. He does kickboxing, he does jiu-jitsu, and all those kinds of things. I said to him, “Do you fight scared?” He said, “What happens when you fight scared?” I said, “Why are you dating scared?” He’s like, “Dude, you’re blowing my mind right now.”
I was just going to say, “I got goosebumps when you said that.” That’s amazing.
I think that’s very real because you’re not supposed to really ask for what you want unless it’s what everyone else wants. It’s okay to ask for monogamy. It’s not okay to ask for non-monogamy. It’s okay to ask for hierarchy or merging. It’s not okay to go flat hierarchy or into non-merge. What happens is you feel like you’re one of those people who’re trying to jump into a double Dutch rope that never does.
They’re scared to screw this up. There’s all this fun to be had. I think you’ve gotten very good at it. I would say this especially about having fun, and you’re like, “Dating should be fun. We should go do interesting things. We shouldn’t just sit and watch TV or a movie. We should go to the Grizzly Rose and go line dancing. We should go to a concert. We should go to the Hot Springs.”
A 100%. That’s really important to me.
In that way, and I think a bigger push that you’re just not a pushover in general. That’s a specific case of a more general phenomenon.
I used to identify as a people pleaser.
You did.
Now I don’t.
You don’t. I would say for me, I don’t have to recount how I’ve changed. I wrote a book about it and I’ve talked about it ad nauseam, but I think the big thing now is just that the current script is not terribly growth-oriented, which is a lot of the major milestones that most people go through, especially if they ride the relationship escalator, happen pretty young in life, and then they just settle into life.
I see what you’re saying.
Getting married is a growth-oriented activity. Having children, growth-oriented. After that, there’s a lot of just like, “This is life.” I think for me, it’s been being able to consider reinventing myself and taking on a completely new lifestyle, and being willing to think differently about the world.
The opportunity.
That’s right, and then recognizing, and this is actually previewing an upcoming taping that I’m going to do about third acts. What is the last third of our life supposed to look like? If we follow the traditional script in Western society, it’s pretty bleak. It’s like work, retire if you’re lucky, travel. That thing versus other cultures and other perspectives, and other opportunities, especially for singles.
That’ll be interesting to hear how other people do it.
Other episodes coming up, I think I’m going to time one for Singles Day, 11:11, and going to bring Bella DePaulo back, who was like the second episode on the science of single living. She has a newish book called Single at Heart, and then CC, Christina Campbell, is going to come back on and she’s going to talk about this single Bill of Rights that some people in the movement are working on, which I’m eager to hear about. One of the things reflecting on the last five and a half years is how many more voices there are as advocates for singles.
I have tapings coming up with separate authors with different books. Lucy Meggeson is coming back on Spinsterhood Reimagined. She has a book called Thrive Solo and rebranded her podcast by that same name. Nicola Slawson, who’s living a really remarkable life, has a new book called Single. She just gets right to the point. I’m going to tape with them soon.
A lot of new voices. For people who remember the Non-Monogamy episode with Lisa Dawn Hamilton. She’s coming back and we’re going to talk about intimacy design, which is applying relationship design principles to sex and intimacy more generally. I’ll continue that series on aging, retiring, and dying single to talk about third acts with Theresa Williamson. She’s a proud single in Rio, and she was on the Single in Rio episode. She and I have been leaving each other like WhatsApp notes about this idea.
She’s undergoing her own third act. Though she’s probably going to live to 100, so it’s probably like a second act for her. Those are all coming up. Looking back, with all these new listeners, it’s hard to catch up. They average probably an hour and fifteen minutes. You can listen to about one and a half speed, I guess, and cut some time off. Let’s be honest, not every episode’s great.
That would be impossible.
I think you should pick the ones that resonate and capture my attention, etc. Where would you suggest new people start? What are the big concepts that you think are a through line across the five and a half years?
Definitely the relationship escalator concept, because we’re constantly comparing. That is the marker that we all grew up with and that we know. When we’re talking about comparing the solo life to that.
There are some episodes with Amy Gahran taped during the pandemic that are a good starting point because Amy doesn’t take credit for the term, but she basically made the term part of the vernacular. She has a really wonderful book called Stepping Off the Relationship Escalator that I would encourage people to read. I cover it in my book, too, but I think it’s the water that we swim in. It’s the way to think about it.
Even from us saying relationship escalator, some listeners might think, “I got you. I know what that means,” but she points out so many things that you don’t realize are part of that conditioning that are really important to think about and to question and to understand and decide if you like those things or not.
I’ve already referenced three of the rules of the relationship escalator. Monogamy, hierarchy, merging. Those are behaviors that you have to adhere to unless you’re bending or breaking the rules, living some alternative life. We already know the milestones. I actually have even referenced some of those. Getting married and often having kids are important milestones. What else comes to mind?
Living a Remarkable Life & Intentionality
I really like Living a Remarkable Life.
People love that episode.
Say more about that.
To me, it’s so interesting. Speaking of the water, I feel like I swim those waters all the time. In two weeks, I’m going to be teaching these concepts to my undergrads. I have a model about the many paths to a remarkable life. I think that the dynamic in that episode is really good. It’s a very optimistic upbeat. I think it’s an episode where you go, “Yeah,” when it gets pointed out to you, it feels right. You’re like, “I never felt like that was the right path for me.” The people are like, “I never cared about making a lot of money, owning a lot of things, or pursuing meaning in this limited type of way.” Maybe I should do a re-release of that one.
I like that idea. If people are new listeners, then they’re starting a journey now, that’s a great way to be intentional about living a remarkable life because it’s so easy to just get caught up in their daily routine or the life routine and not really think about how you’re architecting your future.
It’s shocking how little the differences are. We have differences, but they tend to be like, I like country and you like R&B. I play paddle and you do Kung Fu. Do you know what I mean? The vast array of living differently. I feel like we don’t tap into. It’s all out on the fringes. Even just letting yourself adjust 10% feels like a lot. It doesn’t have to be that way. Speaking of remarkable lives, I think one of the major things is, why should you live a remarkable life?
Living for Yourself, Not Others
Who should you live it for? The first one addresses very heavy-duty existential challenges that we have. What is the purpose of life? To me, the purpose of life is to live it well within your abilities and opportunities. Not everybody has the same opportunities, but they have a choice to pursue the best life that they can for themselves. They need to do it for themselves first, and then everyone else second. I think too many people live the remarkable life that they think the person they want to date.
Their parents. Many people are influenced by what their parents want.
I coach my students on how to let their parents down about not wanting to be an accounting major. It’s important for them to be able to have these conversations.
In that case, they’re not asking.
They should be telling. That’s hard, though. I say that I grew up food stamps poor, not welfare poor. Money was an issue. Very real problem. When I went off to college, I asked her mom for help, “I cannot help you.” I asked dad for help, “I cannot help you.” Time to grow up. I did it on my own. When I switched from engineering to psychology, no one could say no because they weren’t paying the tuition bill. It was difficult.
It would have been nice to have some help, but it also liberated me from those kinds of influences. Some of it is just, I don’t want to disappoint my parents. I’m going to live a less remarkable life just to keep my parents happy. I always say this. Yes, you should get fit, but you should get fit because you want to feel better, because you want to look better. You want to have more energy. If someone gives you their number because of it, that’s nice. That’s a bonus.
That’s not the reason.
It gives other people way too much power when you do it. I want to get fit because I want to attract someone. That’s my opinion.
The way you get fit, too, it’s like I keep telling them, “I should lift weights, and I just hate doing it. I love going to yoga.” Just do that even though the benefits are slightly different.
I know. I started saying, “I just want to be happy. I want to enjoy my life.” If you can get 80% there and enjoy yourself versus be 100% there and be unhappy, I’ll take 80 and be happy, think.
That’s a good way to think about it.
Here’s one for me. There’s nothing wrong with you for wanting or enjoying being single. There is nothing wrong with you for wanting it and/or enjoying it. It’s just, it’s okay. For some people, as Bella talks about in her book, they live their best lives that way. You don’t have to feel like there’s something wrong with you or that you’re broken, or that’s going to actually have listener questions. That’s going to come up. It could just be you’re at a stage in life where having a partner would be inconvenient or downright annoying, or stop you from accomplishing your goals. Whatever it is. Maybe you’ve done it and you’re like, “I don’t want to get remarried. I did it. It was fine. I don’t regret it.” There’s nothing wrong with any of those things.
Nothing Wrong with Being Single
I agree with that best life. I really feel like the past five years have been my best. It relates back to that freedom and independence and living a remarkable life and all of those things, and just owning where we are gives you so much joy.
I love getting these little ones, because in the applications I ask, “Tell me about yourself. What’s your solo journey?” I love them. People will write, like fill the box about it. No one’s ever asked them about their solo journey. They always want to ask, “How long was your longest relationship?” No one on a date is ever like, “Tell me how you love being single.”
That would be great to flip the switch on that one.
It’s so fun to see people leaning in, whether it be like, again, their hobbies, their lifestyle, values, their sexuality, art, travel. It’s really fun. I do think solo tends to attract that type. The topics that we talk about, the orientation, are very growth-oriented. I wonder if I’m missing the people who are really struggling.
As you were saying that, I was thinking that too. Who doesn’t want to be single?
I think other podcasts probably do a better job in that way, though not for men. I think that’s a bit of an overlooked demographic because most of the other podcasts are led by women. The topics skew a little bit more that way for obvious reasons. I wonder, like if you’re really struggling, you hate being single, you just really would love to have a girlfriend, can’t make it happen, and you start listening to SOLO. Do you just like, “This is not for me.”
I wonder because we also talk about living a remarkable life in the meantime. Architects of remarkable life, which will make you a happier person, which will make you a more interesting person, which will make you a more attractive person. Not that you do it for those reasons, but if you’re single now and you don’t want to be, who knows how long that’s going to be. You might as well make the best life you can.
I agree. There’s a dual purpose there in that case. Let’s be honest, what is attractive is someone who is happy, living a joyous life, has energy, and has purpose.
Has stories to share.
You get to be on your own personal journey. By the way, you don’t have to be Indiana Jones. It’s not that. I just visited a friend of mine who moved into a new space, and he’s divorced, and he set up a music room. He didn’t do it to look cool.
He did it for his enjoyment.
He practiced guitar every day, and he dedicated a space to that. When he’s in there playing guitar, he’s doing it because he enjoys playing guitar. He wants to have a sacred space to be able to do that. That’s 10% versus playing video games. Those are, I think, worlds apart. Some people would argue with me, and this is a shameless plug, but it’s true. I did the best I could to summarize the major ideas from 200-plus podcasts into the book. That’s a good place to start in terms of like a crash course.
It’s very well organized.
I tried. Before we get to listener questions, I want to talk about what’s next. I have no big announcements or anything like that. If anything, I would say that while the movement is accelerating, new books coming out, new podcasts, a singles bill of rights, there’s just Ted saying yes to this. There’s cultural winds shifting, I think. I’m slowing down. I would say that I’m stepping out of the public intellectual world, the public academic world, for a bit. I’m contributing to the world aside from the podcast silence.
That’s my contribution right now, but I’m not closing down the podcast. I still enjoy the conversations. There are still topics I want to explore, but I’m doing it. It’s probably been obvious to regular listeners much more sporadically, so episodes aren’t coming out every week or every two weeks necessarily in that way. I thank you for your patience if you are a devout listener and look forward to episodes, but they’ll trickle out as they’re ready.
It makes sense.
Future of the Solo Podcast & Personal Focus
I am going to turn my attention. Some of this is as a result of being a behavioral economist. Some of this is a result of being a business school professor. It’s my job, but some of it is also purpose-driven. That is, I’m going to continue to focus on singles and commerce. About marketing and selling to singles, creating products and services that meet their needs better, better representing single people, saying, “This is a brand for you.”
Focusing on human resources and employment, so singles get discriminated against in non-trivial ways. I’ve been focusing a little bit more on personal finance. As I think about retirement, I find that I have a different set of problems and opportunities than partner people. A lot of financial services companies and financial advisors aren’t paying attention to singles. It’s a very traditional industry. They call it a male, pale, and stale is a joke within that world.
Talking to both singles about how to save better, earn more, and then invest better. To think about, they may be on different timelines. They may be able to semi-retire or part-time in a way that a partner who wants to travel wouldn’t do it. To talk to the advisors. You should be asking different questions. You should be giving different advice. Single people should have a bigger emergency fund, for example, because they don’t have the hedge of another person paying bills, etc.
The reason I want to do that is that I think that if you can change the way business thinks, you change the way culture operates because businesses affect culture. It also just helps us live a better life. I’m not interested in politics. I don’t want to do that stuff. I think this is a good fit. I’m not letting that go. I’ve got a couple of essays already that I’m trying to get published. Other than that, I’m just going to see what happens. Happy to know that there are other voices.
It’s a big tent. The tent’s getting actually bigger with more and more advocates. It’s cool. How nice versus the opposite, which I bet you Bella felt like, so if you think about it, Bella was like first through the wall twenty plus years ago. More than 20 years ago. Maybe 25 years ago. I cannot remember exactly. You’re like a lone voice for a decade. You might wonder, “Is this ever going to happen?” I’m sure she’ll talk about it on this episode. She got a donation. She’s setting up a foundation to help with singles advocacy. I know it’s like a life dream of hers.
Is she taking more of a political approach?
I don’t think she’s involved in the singles bill of rights. She might’ve been consulted. I would have called her. For me, I’m just going to experiment with a new life. Slower, more analog, more present, more playful, more physical. I went on a retreat recently.
I was just going to say, “Are we going to talk about that?”
Sure, yeah.
I haven’t even seen you since.
I was going to be in Colombia already. I’ve had an interest in boxing for a long time, but I’ve gotten serious in the last six months. I brought my gloves with me to Eastern Europe. We did a little Solo mini book tour in Poland, in Warsaw. You can read Solo in Polish. You can read Solo in Portuguese.
Really?
Yes. It’s available. If you have any Brazilian friends or friends from Portugal, you can buy Solo. I just found out. I just said, “This is nice.” They sold the foreign rights to Solo in Japan.
You’ve referenced Japan a lot.
They have some difficult elements to solohood there. It’s not all live remarkably there. Hopefully it’ll be helpful. I love Japan, please.
Book a tour.
Invite me. We could do a lost in translation to a Reboot. Instead of a instead of an actor selling whiskey, it’ll be a professor selling books. Except don’t worry that movies are unhappily married. It’s a very spicy movie, actually, but very good. Watch it, you’re going to go to Japan. It’ll get you pumped. I was going to be in South America, beating the heat and just writing and reading. I was looking for boxing retreats.
By the way, this is not a paid promotion, but it’s called Fighters Retreat, and it’s MMA-based. They do it in different countries, but a lot of it’s in Colombia. They like to rent a big villa and then they invite an actual MMA professional or a retired professional to coach. Two sessions a day, seven days. The whole thing, 7 days, more like 5 straight days of training. I wasn’t completely excited about it.
You really wanted boxing.
I wanted boxing. I’m not interested in wrestling and grappling, jiu-jitsu, and kicking and all that stuff. Just give me that narrow lane of two fists and we’ll go.
In the early MMA days, the boxers got their asses handed to them because the wrestlers were cleaning up. I was dating a wrestler at the time when those first came out, when that whole thing started.
I did it as an experiment, and I did it to stretch myself. It’s very easy to stay in your lane. “I’m a boxer, I want to box.”
How’d it go?
It was great. It was challenging. I trained for it. That was good. I really dedicated myself to training for it. Trained twice a day. I did a taper. I was the old guy there.
I wondered.
There were two other guys in their 50s. I was the maybe least or second least experienced person there, which is exactly where I want to be. I want to be the oldest, ugliest, dumbest, athletic person in the room. Have them where I want them. My partner, whom I partnered up with the whole time, was shorter than me and 20 pounds heavier. When I grabbed him to try to take him down, it felt like I was grabbing a piece of stone. He was a great guy, and he kept things at the level they needed to be given. I was new to many of these things. His name’s Bryant. Bryant was incredibly generous and patient with me and only hurt me once. That’s good.
He was there to train, to further his training skills for MMA?
Yes. He was friends with the MMA guy. It’s a little bit of a brotherhood community. Some of the guys, their students came, that’s how the word gets out, and all those kinds of things. Everybody was really lovely, and it was a different style of living. Got me out of my routines, stretched me physically. We would start the day with Wim Hof breathing. Bodhi, who runs it, shouts out to Bodhi. We would do Wim Hof breathing, like a little eleven-minute protocol. We would do a meditation that Bodhi would lead. I’ve continued the Wim Hof breathing. I have a new habit in my day. It’s supposed to be good for you.
It’s supposed to be good for.
Benefits of Retreats for Personal Growth
That’s not to tell myself. It’s not like I want to do it, but it’s fine. It was great. I think I’ll do it again. I think I’m going to start experimenting with some other types of retreats because I think I should do a yoga retreat somewhere and just like spaz my body out for a week, and see how it goes. You meet different people. It’s the vacation I need. I cannot sit on a beach. You need to give me lots of activities. If you don’t, I’ll just fall into my old habits. I’d be like, “Where’s the coffee shop?”
You’re trying to get away.
To be more improvisational. This is my way of having someone else tell me what to do.
There you go.
Also, I was like, “Do I start hosting these things?”
Solo retreat.
Solo retreats are men’s wellness things. I know I’ve been talking about this for a long time.
It’ll happen when it’s supposed to.
It’s fine. I think some of it is “I’m such a solo.”
You don’t want to be stuck with a bunch of people.
Bodhi, did a great job running this thing, but he’s constantly being asked questions, and he has to be at every single thing. They had some activities. I went horseback riding. I hadn’t been horseback riding in like 30 years, but I skipped, like there was a night out. They did like a night out, and I was like, “You’re leaving an hour before I go to bed. I’m not going to that,” but Bodhi’s got to go.
You could outsource that.
Maybe, to you.
That’s awesome.
I think I also spend a lot of time alone, and if I’m not living in Denver. When I’m in Denver, I have a lot more social time. I’ve been back for only a few days. I’ve seen Darwin, you, Dave, and David in 36 hours. When I’m traveling, like when I was in Eastern Europe, I have no friends. I made some acquaintances, but it’s not the same as friends. If I can trick my friends into visiting me in these places and go on retreats, it could be quite a good balance.
That could be so fun. We could do some really fun things.
Is there a retreat you think I should consider? Don’t say a silent retreat. They have darkness retreats. Have you heard about this?
No.
They put you in a cabin, completely blacked out, for like three days.
No, thank you.
I’m tempted to do that one.
Maybe start with it. Can you start with a beginner version, like 24 hours?
I want something like an emergency button.
24 hours wouldn’t be enough. Silence seems harder for you.
That’s true, I would rather do darkness and silence.
I suppose the darkness comes with silence. You’re not in there with others.
You can talk to yourself, though. I would talk to myself because I probably would also like to bring some edibles or a suicide bin.
Is that cheating?
No, it’s still darkness. Anyway, anybody who has ideas for treats, especially if you’ve done one, I won’t do like space camp or like they have to do the baseball ones and stuff like that. That I won’t do. I think we should get to listener questions.
Let’s do it.
Angela writes, “Peter and Julie exclamation point! I haven’t listened to all the episodes yet, either, so forgive me if this is repetitive, but in the Solo Community and also in the childless/child-free communities I’ve joined, I’m curious if there’s a pattern or theme around nature versus nurture for those on the solo spectrum. I follow the We Can Do Hard Things podcast, and they are always talking about internal family systems and childhood family dynamics, and how those influence us throughout adulthood. This is a big theme in the culture. People throwing around the T word.” Do you know what the T word is?
Therapy?
Trauma and then the need for therapy, certainly. The people who are selling the therapy often throw around the word trauma the most, too. I’m not giving away my answer here. “Is there any research or anecdotal evidence that shows correlations between solo traits/preferences that lead to a solo life and childhood experiences or family origin dynamics? Basically, how much does your childhood affect your tendency to be solo or not? Either good or bad. How can we tell the difference between a trait or a preference that should or could be celebrated as a wild and free solo? I like that, wild and free versus something that might just need to be healed, that would also set you free but in a different way.” Thank you, Angela, for a very thoughtful question.
You started with a big one.
I’m not asking you to uh weigh in on the science.
I was just going to say, I commented on that in the community.
You kicked it over to me to research. Now I’m teasing.
I knew you would be nerdy all over the research. Didn’t I even say that in the thing? I know you’ll have a research-related answer, but what I commented and alluded to is through my own journey over the last several years, again, feeling like I’ve done so much healing that solo makes way more sense. I guess for you, solo was more of a you always felt that way a thing.
There is a difference. To her point, my own personal journey, and it sounds like part of yours, some of it was “My parents were miserable. They fought. They were a terrible match. They got divorced. That was acrimonious. My mother hated my father, tried to turn us against him. I did not have role models. Most of the families in my neighborhood were single-parent. I had a few friends. My friend Michael had two happy, healthy parents, etc. I did not have while the media was saying all this stuff.
My own personal experience wasn’t getting married and having this blissful living in a way that I had girlfriends who did have parents like that.” She’s like, “I want to be that, but it did certainly. I leaned into the solitude because the world was so chaotic. I could retreat into my room and my books, and I could stay away from home by playing sports. I started working because work was often better.” Those things. Some of that stuff got me going in this direction, and the rest of it was like, “This suits me. I like it.”
My stepmom, who knows you well, would always say, “If he would just do his work, then he could get married and be happy.” I’m like, “That’s her script.”
I’ve done a ton of therapy. I did ten years with a poet. I do psychedelics, other alternatives. I’m constantly reading self-help books and all this stuff. I think if it were that, I would have had it sorted by now, but actually had the opposite effect. It actually was like, “No, this works for you. This is good. You can do it.”
My point being, I think you were always more of a solo path. You found through your voice and your journey ways to understand that it is good and you’re not the only one. Where I’m different from you is that I’ve been married and divorced twice.
I know.
I have not always been on a solo path, and the more healing and work I’ve done on myself, the more solo I become and the happier I become.
The more interconnected you become. You have this huge community and group of friends in your life, more so than when you were married. You always had friends. It’s not like you were isolated. It’s nothing like now. All the people at the social club that we’re part of have crushes on Julie. Male and female.
I’m blushing.
I love a good crush. Yes. Crushes are fun.
They’re fun.
I like a good crush. I think that our conversation here, and I agree with you, we met, you were the only woman at my bachelor party.
That’s right.
I was 34 and thinking this way. I didn’t have the binoculars. I hadn’t read Bella DePaulo, or there weren’t podcasts back then. You’re right. I was always on this path. I struggled with dating when I was young. I was shot in this direction, and it proved to be a good direction for me. You’ve come about it more securitously. I was teasing about the trauma stuff because I think obviously our behavior is multiply determined.
Nature vs. Nurture & Solo Life
Our genetics. Some people are more predisposed to depression than others. Some people live in places that are more depressing than others places. When the two come together, that’s when it really often becomes a major problem. These things can be cultural and political. There was a time in American history when, if you were gay, you felt like there was something wrong with you. I think very few people who are gay think that way. At least I hope they don’t think that way anymore.
They certainly do less now because not constantly being told “There’s something wrong with you.” In that sense. I also think that it’s hard to be a parent, and it’s hard to have a perfectly healthy family dynamic. I think a lot of us went through hard times, whether it be physical abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, etc. Our generation was famously neglected. It’s like, “It’s 10:00 PM, do you know where your children are?”
It was a real PSA in the ‘80s. Can you imagine? Now we have the opposite problem. They just know exactly where their kid is and what they’re doing at every single moment. Too often, they’re in the basement on their phone, unfortunately. I think that obviously if you have unaddressed pain, if you have negative self-talk, if you’re dealing with anxiety and depression, if you’re overweight, if you have an addiction.
If you have really profound, unhealthy relationships in your life, I want you to work on those things because life is so much better on the other side. Now, to what degree is your addiction or your depression due to childhood trauma, and how much of it has to do with your genetics, and how much of it has to do with your bad habits, and how much of it? I think it’s just worth it to work on all those things with the end goal of having fewer addictions in your life, having more joy, and having healthier relationships. By the way, I don’t care what the relationships are.
I was just going to say, “The endpoint is not the goal, it’s the self-improvement.” That may change where you end up. Through self-improvement, you’ll end up where you should.
By the way, I think there are people who are solo because they’ve just had such a profoundly bad relationship in their life that it hurt them. They cannot trust anymore. The person abused them, the person cheated on them, the person stole their money, whatever it is. I’m like, “Being able to forgive, being able to recognize what led you into that relationship, recognizing that not everybody’s like that, that if you do want that, again, you can be able to do it.”
In the meantime, enjoy your singlehood. Oscar Wilde said, “To love oneself is the beginning of a lifelong love affair.” Bella DePaulo very early on highlighted the multiple reasons that people are single. By choice, by chance, by season, even. Later in life, you’re widowed. There’s very little evidence that single people are less happy than married people.
Isn’t there evidence of the opposite? That singles are happier, married people are happiest in the first year they’re married.
You get a benefit of getting married, and you go back down, but married people are only like a tiny bit, on average, happier than single people. The effect is so small that it doesn’t even explain any meaningful amount of happiness in any one person. That piece of data alone suggests that it’s not about trauma. If the trauma led you to be single, it should also lead you to be less happy. There’s just no evidence for that.
That makes sense.
I think some of this is really just comes down to solos just being a bit more autonomous. They’re just a little more independent. They’re a little more self-sufficient. They like their solitude a little more. Few of them want to be alone all the time in the same way that few married people want to be with their partner all the time. I think it’s just like, it just can shift you, and then stepping outside the relationship escalator is just less painful.
It’s actually even more pleasurable. I think that it’s both nature and nurture. For example, more agreeable people are better at relationships. More extroverted people need less solitude. Some of that is just genetically determined. Honestly, Julie, you’re just a happy person. You’re not really that anxious a person. Some of that is like you’ve lived a good, healthy, happy life, and you have people who love you, parents who support you and love you, etc. Some of it was like, just the DNA broke the right way for you.
Yeah, because it doesn’t mean I haven’t had trauma and dealt with some crazy things.
I know.
Bottom line, just summarize that. Internal family systems and all of that. It affects people regardless, but it isn’t a marker for solo or not.
What I want to ask is, are you enjoying your life? Are you living the life you want to be living? Do you have healthy relationships? If the answer to those questions is yes, I guess you could deal with the trauma. There are coping strategies that happened a long time ago, “That’s not who I am.” If you believe that what happens in your childhood affects you now, it’s going to affect you.
If you’re just like, I’m a different person now, I’ve grown out of that. I’ve done the work. It was well-meaning. The way you interpret these things ends up having a thing. I care more about, like, “What is your day-to-day like?” Again, I am also an advocate for therapy. I also recognize that it does have some limitations there. I’m glad I did all the therapy I did.
Quiet Resignation vs. Season of Growth
Mark writes, “What if you’ve done the inner work, created a decent solo life, but the truth is romantic options just don’t inspire you? You’re not lonely all the time, but you’re not totally fulfilled either. At what point does this stop being a season of growth and start feeling like quiet resignation? How do they differ?” It’s a big question. I think it describes a lot of people’s lives. Life’s good, but work or this relationship or money or fitness or and you’re like, “It’s been like this for a long time. I’m getting a little old. Is it going to change?”
I think that’s what he’s describing is like, “I guess this is what it is.” “At what point does this stop being a season of growth and start feeling like quiet resignation? How do they differ?” I think the issue is like, at what point do you feel like you cannot change the situation? You cannot change other people. To what degree can you put your thumb on the scale and make a change, and how much of it do you just have to notice it and accept this is the way it is?
Here’s my thought about this. If it becomes enough of a pain point, then that inspires action to change it because on one hand, you could just accept, this is what it is. On the other hand, you can say, “I don’t want this to be what it is. I want to do something to make changes.” What those changes specifically might be. I don’t know, but I’m not one to just say, “Those are the cards I’ve been dealt, or that’s the way it is. I would try if it was enough of a pain point.”
That’s the thing. He’s like, “Is it worth the brain damage?”
That’s an individual decision.
For a lot of people, a lot of solos, the romance is not, it’s not like they’re aromantic, but it’s optional. If it happens, it’s nice, but no big deal. That gives you a lot, but if you’re like, “I want this.” With Theresa and Monique, we did a solos and romance episode, and they came to me and said, “We want to do this episode.” I never would have thought to do the episode. They were like, “I’m solo, I love being solo. I like my singleness, but I also like romance.” I’m not a romantic or anything like that, and I like a little romance in my life, but it’s not that high on the list. You’ve got to be honest with yourself. First of all, you can be solo in what romance, there’s a whole episode on it, but then get honest with yourself. How much do you really want this?
This brings up a button, coming back around to ask for what you want. I’m having a personal insight right now because I like romance. It’s fun. I date. To be able to say that to someone, if you’re having that solo conversation, “I’m solo and I still like romance. We can still have romantic activities and things like that. That would be fun.” I think that’s really a good point.
In his case, when he says romantic, he may just mean dating. Going on dates and not just having sex. It’s funny, so you could have a sexual friendship, friends with benefits, so you could get sex from a friend. The moment you get romance from a friend, they’re no longer a friend, they’re a boyfriend or a girlfriend. It is one of the areas that you cannot learn. Tonight, Julie is going to help me with a bracelet, tie a bracelet I have, because I cannot do it alone. She’s going to give me some advice on a slight redecoration I’m considering, and she’s going to give me some fashion advice for some bombers I bought. I can get those things from a girlfriend or a friend equally well. In some ways better from a friend.
The girlfriend may have a bias.
I cannot get romance from you.
No.
We’re going to go sit in the hot tub, but we’re not sitting in the hot tub.
It’s not going to be romantic. It might even be at sunset.
That’s right. Your point is a very good one, I think.
I think you can have romance even when casually dating someone.
Totally. Actually, that’s some of the funnest parts of dating someone because you don’t get into all the heavy stuff. To me, the issue is also is I think there are two. There’s the how much do you want it, and how much can you influence it? It might be a profound thing. I talk about this a lot. If you’re a solo and you live in Oklahoma, you might be rather limited.
The type of retreat you might choose might be influenced by that.
Again, some of this, though, is about the resources you have. The time, the money, the energy, the attention. For example, I have a listener who’s a former roommate in graduate school. He is divorced but dating. He lives in rural Illinois, or Indiana, or something like that. He works at a university. I was like, “Dude, once a month you’re going to Chicago.” The money you would spend doing dating and stuff, but it wouldn’t work for you. Go to Chicago, set up a dating profile there, and say, “I’m a professor, I come to Chicago this often, I’m looking for fun dates to go to museums, to go to concerts.”
I was like, there are going to be women in Chicago who will look at your profile and go, “Hot dog. Here’s this guy, he’s a professor. He’s not going to be in my way all the time. We’re going to spend a weekend together. We’re going to go out to a fancy cocktail bar. We’re going to have some deep dish. We’re going to do all the Chicago things I never do. I’m going to have some romance in my life.” Are you willing to move to another city? You’re willing to move to another country? Are you going to take special retreats? They’re going to bring you in contact with those kinds of people and so on. Can you do all that stuff without caring what anyone else thinks?
It’s also what I think is detrimental, to expect some outcome. You have to enjoy the journey, enjoy the ride. When you expect a specific outcome, you’re likely to be disappointed because hitting that target exactly is not an easy thing to do.
It is. It’s really hard when you have these 0 or 1 thinking. I talk about the just-mays are very good at avoiding this. A just-may solo is like, “I’d like to find someone. I’d like to get married. I’d like to ride the relationship escalator.” That seems really cool with the right person, but if it doesn’t happen, that’s okay. I’m going to be living my great life now. I’m not waiting for anything or anyone. They have it figured out because they’re like, “I like that. A relationship with that style agrees with me. I’d like to find it. If I don’t, that’s okay. I’m not going to look back on my life as a failure.” Which actually brings us to a group that I think can struggle more, which is the new ways.
Ali writes, “Any tips on how to find new ways for people? I’m in the UK and the mainstream dating apps are full of old way, or I would say someday, traditional relationship escalator hoppers. The new ways are out there, I am sure.” I don’t know if it’s Ali. It doesn’t matter, actually. I like how Ali’s optimism. Experience tells me the guys want to text loads. I’m getting sexual quickly. Yawn, an absolute no-no for me. I’m not keen to meet for coffee early. Can we stop for and do a PSA for any men listening to this? Ali, 100% right. Enough with all the texting.
It’s exhausting.
“Let’s meet. Let’s just meet and see, can we have a conversation?” Is there some energy there? We can have fun, we can become friends. Get out of the house. It’s a coffee. The bar is so low to go for a coffee. She says, “As a woman, I do have security concerns around the online thing and had a couple of angry reactions when I declined a date, 2 or 3 with kindness.” Another PSA, no means no. If she says “No, thank you.” Don’t ask again.
Don’t get mad.
There are a million reasons that she said no. By the way, it doesn’t matter. How should Ali meet in some new ways?
I would say ask for what you want. Try to change the conversation in your dating app profile and plug the Solo podcast. No, but seriously, as a way of trying, more people need this language and vernacular, and like she says, “They’re out there 100%.” They probably think they need to play the relationship escalator game because that’s what they have to do to get women to respond to them, because that’s what everybody expects. I would say be a renegade and be bold and change the language or say what you’re looking for.
When I’m on the dating apps and I see one of those profiles, I cannot swipe right fast enough. I like the ask for what you want on the positive side. We’ve talked a lot about this. If you have to write no, then just find a way to reverse it. It’s like, “I love in-person conversation.”
“I value feeling the chemistry.”
“I give a good phone. I used to write that.” Keep it positive. Finding some apps where there are more new ways people are good. Some of the apps are better now, like Hinge allows you to more finely say what you’re looking for and explain. When I was talking about the new ways of having difficulty, I think the issue is that there’s only one way to be on the relationship escalator, but there’s an infinite number of ways to be a new way. Making a match is really hard because you’re like, “I don’t want to live with someone, but I want monogamy or vice versa.” Those two people.
Talking about a match at this stage is too soon. It’s an exploration. There’s a relationship design that helps two people who are attracted to each other figure out what they want that to be.
That’s true. Thank you for throwing my model back in my face. “Peter, no, you’re wrong. Look at chapter nine in your book.”
Wax on. You taught me well.
You just painted the fence. We would call that a parry. Find the apps, utilize the apps, ask for what you want, keep it positive. I would check out Eventbrite, Meetup. There are often groups around particular topics. There are polyamory groups, things like that. If that’s your style of new way, that’s the problem. Some people are just like, “I just don’t want to live with someone.” I think a big one, and I don’t know how to sort on it, is about hierarchy. That actually tees up our final question. We’ll get back to that. How do you ask for a flat hierarchy? How do you sort on that? That’s something more of a relationship design thing, where you have to educate the person who might be in default thinking.
At this stage, she’s trying to meet these people. Being a little more open, or I don’t know, maybe there’s a flirtatious way to pique someone’s curiosity about that topic, or I don’t know, I’m trying to brainstorm.
You’re brainstorming. Again, it’s also about the other one, is you taught me this phrase, slow to hire, quick to fire.
I thought you taught me that because you applied it to dating.
You think about this. The idea eventually is like, this dude doesn’t get it. You basically say, “I’m enjoying texting. I’d really love to continue this conversation in person.” If this ding dong doesn’t say, “Great, when are you available for a drink or a coffee or a lunch or a walk?” Something like that? He just keeps texting you, you just say, “You seem like a nice person, but I don’t think I’m the right person for you.” Boom, you’re done.
I think what a lot of women struggle with them making the next move is they feel like it seems like a masculine, not a responsibility.
In a post #MeToo world. A lot of guys are gun-shy. It hurts to get rejected. It’s like I believe that you should ask for what you want, whether you’re male or female.
Once you get them in person, you can say you value a masculine.
By the way, Daria, so I had an episode. I had a dating coach in the early days, and she had the greatest analogy for this. She’s like back in Victorian times or Renaissance times or whenever it was, the ladies would be out and the gentlemen would be out. They’d be walking around, but you couldn’t just walk up to a woman and be like, “What’s your number?” Besides the fact that they didn’t have telephones. The lady would drop her hanky when the right guy came along, and he would pick it up and give it to her, and they would have a small conversation. She knew what she was doing, and he knew what she was.
“Do you want to get together on Wednesday at 10:00?”
That’s right. Again, this is unisex. It’s nice to know someone’s interested. “I really like talking to you. You’re so funny. Can we continue this in person?” Again, don’t be scared. Ali, good luck. Gail writes, “You’ve done an episode on breaking up with friends. Quick PSA, I broke up with a friend that I talked about on that episode afterwards, because I realized I was being so chicken shit about it. It went okay.
What about when a friend brings a new partner into their life, and the new partner does not like you? This happened a few times with me, and then that partner tries their hardest to break me and my friend up. Here’s a romantic person coming in and trying to execute a friend breakup. I end up staying away, but of course, they usually break up, and the friendship continues. We’ve talked about a similar case, which is a new romantic partner comes and the friend disappears, but not actively trying to sabotage.”
Yes, intense. Of course, what I want to know they are jealous? The next thing is, what is the motivation? Insecurity, you said, jealousy? Are they picking something up? Is your soloness threatening? This happens a little bit. I’ve had this happen in my life where a friend gets married, and sometimes the wife loves me. “Pete’s great.” Other times, like, I don’t really love, “Stop showing him how great bachelorhood is, please.” It’s threatening in some way.
As soon as you start seeing signs, it seems like that’s to start a conversation. I really value our friendship, and I’m concerned about this behavior.
“This has happened before.”
Maybe, “Do you have feedback for me? What am I doing to create this type of dynamic, if anything?” I mean, I’m not saying it’s necessarily the person’s fault, but maybe there’s some good feedback to be had.
I think it’s reasonable to ask this question, especially since we don’t know all the details. I also think that it’s very common you get this triangle. It’s called Balance Theory in social psychology. It’s this old ass theory. It’s like, you and I are close. You and person X are close. Person X and I are not. That means that’s an imbalance. Versus, “You and I are close, you and I hate person X.” Now we’re in balance. That thing, and so we have some imbalance.
Now you have to navigate that socially because there’s influence going in all these different directions. That’s what she’s really describing here. This is the tough thing. Hierarchy, I’m all about hierarchy. Suggest that this romantic partner is more important than your old friend and faster. I could see how you’d be on your heels. You normally be like, “This isn’t my friend of 30 years. This is just some chump she mashed with on hinge four months ago. Am I worried?” I’ve outlasted your marriages. If you’re like, “Peter, I’m getting married.” I’m like, “Okay.”
Not likely.
I think one is like, be patient and trust in your friend. The friend who is really committed to you. It’s actually in many ways their responsibility.
I was going to say, they should see some big red flags if their partner is trying to come between them and a friend.
Especially if the reasons seem arbitrary or petty, or I just don’t like that person, or whatever.
What’s the dynamic of the friend dating the new person? Is the friend dynamic date controlling people?
That’s a good question, that’s right. I know there’s so much juice. There’s so much meat on the bone.
We need a call-in question to just ask these questions, so we can grill them.
That’s a really fun idea. Julie, I’m trying to do less, not more. I have another idea. You have to diversify your friendships. Not to be mean to my friends, I have so many friends that if a couple of them were like, let their partner drive a wedge between us, I’ll be disappointed, I’ll be sad, and I would welcome them back into my life, but it’s not going to devastate me.
Having a big stable of friends, and especially ones I always talk about multi-generationally, I like that I have friends who are like 22 years old, and have gone to a text message thread with two former students. I consider them friends now. My life is so much richer because of those two guys. I learn about stuff, and they’re just so excited about life. It’s just really inspirational to me to have that. I have old friends like you.
Thanks. Work in the old joke wherever you can.
Julie’s barely older than me, but I always tease her about it.
I’ve been an old friend for a long time.
An old friend, so I had a little play on words. I think maybe you have to educate them about hierarchy. “This is something that happens that it’s automatic, people don’t often.”
We’ve mentioned it several times, so maybe a quick explanation.
Just that your romantic partner is supposed to be the most important adult in your life, hands down, and often has wide-ranging veto power over your own behavior in the relationship escalator model, and which I’m assuming Gail’s friends are in, generally.
Everyone else gets downgraded, and the partner is on the pedestal and powerful.
Not just worshiped, but also listened to. It’s like, they have a lot of say. They get to decide who you spend time with. For example, I think most people on the relationship escalator say, “My wife has a say over who I spend time with, or my husband.” A little bit of patience, diversifying, educating, and maybe some self-reflection, depending on the nature of the situation.
That’s all good. I’d be curious what happens.
Yes, Gail, let us know.
I know, we never have follow-ups on these.
Sometimes we do, sometimes I do, but it’s too hard to go back.
That would be impossible.
Thank you. I didn’t get to all the listener questions. My apologies, but thank you to the people who submitted them. Thank you, Julie, for your dedication to the SOolo Movement and your willingness to do this. I really had fun doing this.
I always have fun.
I do. I’m not willing to give it up yet.
Good.
Now 500? Maybe not. I’m not going to promise that, but I’ll promise another 1 more, or 2 or 3.
You mentioned several.
Those are in the works. I think it’s still important to do. Thanks so much.
Thank you.
Cheers.
Important Links
- Julie Nirvelli
- Solo Movement
- Bella DePaulo – The Science of Single Living – Past Episode
- Single at Heart
- Christina Campbell – Unmarried Equality – Past Episode
- Lucy Meggeson – Contemporary Spinterhood – Past Episode
- Spinsterhood Reimagined
- Thrive Solo
- Nicola Slawson
- Single
- Non-Monogamy episode with Lisa Dawn Hamilton
- Theresa Williamson – Single In Rio De Janeiro, Brazil – Past Episode
- Amy Gahran – Defining Solo – Past Episode
- Stepping Off the Relationship Escalator
- Fighters Retreat
- Stop telling single people to get married TED
About Julie Nirvelli
Julie Nirvelli was born and raised in San Jose, CA and earned her college degree from Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. She has lived in Colorado for 18+ years. As a strong, independent and fun-loving person, Julie embraces the solo life. She is also a Solo sponsor, with her company Bachelor Girl productions, which offers you fun flirty t-shirts.